Kage has sick ringout skills.

Yeh, 46P+G with Akira when their back is to the fence and they are out of the ring. If Akira himself is a couple of steps away from the fence and does 42P+G stumbling trip then double palm then they go out the ring aswell. I don't know of any other character that can ring out on half fence using throws with either character being up against a wall.

Also the addition of those safe on block moves you said which will ring out on CH (some on NH).

I whole heartedly believe that Akira is a higher tier than what people think.

Yeah Lei is pretty strong at a distance, but I dunno, I feel like all the characters in A and B tier can pretty effectively force their game on Lei Fei.

His whiffpunishing is very strong, but imo he doesn't really have any really strong other options. Yes 66k+g is tough if your character lacks a nice keepout tool, but for example Lau can effectively stop it with a well-placed 3k.

Lei's spearpunch doesn't really scare me that much offline, if you pay attention you can evade this at long range on reaction and at midrange the Lei-player has to put himself at risk to use this move, since it's not that fast compared to usual midrange attacks like sidekicks and the payoff isn't that big.

I think B-tier is a good place for him. It's not that he's weak, but I think the characters placed above him can force their game on him more than the other way around.

Risk/Reward is the real tier and what it should be based off most imo, because everyone can end a round in 3-4 correct choices. Just read right and figure out your opponent before they do to you. Just get that feel and make sure your correct choices are the strongest you can get, and hopefully your incorrect choices are ones that can't be punished unless avoided or reversed, and if guarantees are there... minimize. Alot of characters are at more risk for their reward than others. Linear moves, frame punishable moves, single limbed moves, lack of string/lack of variable string, lack of move property's variety, hitboxes, speed, etc.

Punishment doesn't have as much bearing on what makes a character good in 5, because of how safe moves are to the frame. <- cause that's what Jide based it on right? Or is it punishment based on how unsafe you can make a character become in the matchup, due to stuff like: Linear moves, frame punishable moves, single limbed moves, lack of string/lack of variable string, lack of move property's variety, hitboxes, speed, etc. Then Jide's list could almost go in reverse.

Some characters can get great rewards or risk free options from moves that can't be punished at all, even if evaded. Alot of 3K's from range do stuff like this, and the added strings cover them even more, some don't.

Sarah's punishment is freakin excellent, it's amazing, but it is that way only with guarantee strikes at -10, -15 and crouched -16. The -10 couple others can get, the -16 does only a lil bit more than alot of -15 punishers, even her own. The -16 might be very sketchy depending on what actually happened.

Eileen gets the amazing 10f punisher to adv too, Pai gets 10f punish but it's not the same for Pai because the PK might not always be as beneficial, cause it don't even give adv does it?

Punishment is simply how good a character is at punishing punishable moves. As simple as that.


Sarah not only has standard -10 punishment + great -15 and -16 punisher, she also has the best 13fr punishment in the game with + which does something like 46 damage + knockdown. If you can do this consistently on stuff like Akira's knee or Jeffry's then the risk/reward for these moves will drastically change.

Her is also very good punisher for low kicks. She's not alone in having this kind of punisher, but together with all her other stuff I definitely rate Sarah as having the best punishment in the game.

Pai gets frame advantage from her if she goes into bokutai. That girls have 10fr jabs doesn't really give them that much advantage in punishment situations though as -10 moves are very rare in VF5.

@ Marly

Blaze's main throw game is really good. Infact I dare say it's even better than Jeffry's.

Kage's throw game is probably the best. But Wolf's just has a higher consistent damage. TFT pretty much rules the roost

Erdaug while Vane's punishment and throws become stronger in OS rather than taking maximum potential I just pretty much averaged them up because she has to rely on being in another stance.

Slide it's just punishment. I do know that having a really strong punishment game doesn't make you top tier but it does help!

I agree with you, but I looked at a couple things differently that's why I didn't mention them.

The -13, is amazing, but it's already past 12, while throws can be escaped, you can't escape every single one. So it'd be like, 0 damage or minimum 45? To a maximum of 100 pts. or something right? With throws.

And her 6PK on rare occasion, typically vs heavies it can miss the K at range. This is very rare, so it doesn't really matter.

But other than that, I completely agree.

Sarah doesn't do enough throw damage or have enough damaging directions to warrant giving up 46 damage that is GUARANTEED for a guessing game. Let's say opponent escapes the two best throw directions every time, then you'll be doing less damage then + anyway. If you throw every time at +13 and calculate the average damage you'll get out of it I'm pretty sure that you'll end up with far less then 46.

Only time Sarah should be doing throws as punishment is rare occassions at +10 to +12, other then that you're just throwing away damage. Most of the time you should do to punish at +10 to +12 too.

This, of course, you can throw out the window if you face someone you know can't break throws, also in the heat of battle it is sometimes just easier to do that throw instead of the proper punishment which happens to us all, but not something one should strive for.

Here comes the elongated discussion about Sarah