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(Myke) -
2008-12-23 01:35
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#194303 - 2008-02-25 09:59
Fuzzy guard ~ option select attack
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KoD
Old Hand
Registered: 2002-07-05
Loc: Austin, Texas, Y'all
XBL GT: KoD VFDC
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Consider the following at -5 :
  ~ release , hold for a few frames ~ attack or throw
If the opponent tried an immediate mid, you will guard it, and your attack / throw will not come out, because you are still in blockstun. You don't even have to G-cancel, because chances are pretty good it's not in the input buffer.
If the opponent tried an immediate throw, it will whiff, and your attack / 0 frame throw will come out.
There's no reaction or distinguishing between opponent's responses involved here; you can use the same timing for both cases, and as long as you use something reasonably fast as an attack, they wont have time to guard after throw whiffs.
If you use something that's strong against clash, it works well against delay throw also. Will lose to low throw and delayed attack, but that opens up opportunities to simply abare.
I had always assumed this would work, but had never bothered to test it; after confirming it with programmed inputs, i tried it out by hand, and its not that hard to do, especially with fast moves like pai   +. Knee-speed attacks are a little trickier, but definitely doable.
I don't recall this being discussed before, is that just because it's obvious? Most people around here seem to talk about fuzzy in terms of just tapping down and then holding guard forever until the opponent does something.
Edit: Here's a video of what I'm talking about -
http://blip.tv/file/845595
AI is set to mid-or-throw, jeff is doing the exact same set of inputs every time. Note that he cannot simply knee here, as it will clash.
Edited by KoD (2008-04-21 21:54)
Edit Reason: link to vid
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#194313 - 2008-02-25 10:57
Re: Fuzzy guard ~ option select attack
[Re: Saramus_Prime]
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KoD
Old Hand
Registered: 2002-07-05
Loc: Austin, Texas, Y'all
XBL GT: KoD VFDC
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Yeah, i would do that too like after jeff's elbow was blocked, cd forward and guard for a bit, and if they werent doing anything, throw.
But my point here is that you can do it mechanically, as an option select, without regard to looking at whether the opponent is doing anything, because if you guard then your counterattack wont come out.
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#194394 - 2008-02-25 18:43
Re: Fuzzy guard ~ option select attack
[Re: KoD]
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Sorias
Addict
Registered: 2007-11-02
Loc: Seattle
XBL GT: Sorias
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I will admit I never mapped it all out in those terms... but after thinking about it a while, isn't that just the definition of fuzzy? You guard against immediate mid or throw. What happens after that is sort of a seperate guessing game... yes, a followup attack will beat a delay throw, but you'll still get counterhit by a delay attack with less delay than however many frames you took to fuzzy.
The reason delay throw tends to be mentioned a lot, and is very potent, is that if you pull off a completely mechanical fuzzy, there's enough time to see whether you're opponent used a mid or throw, or did nothing. And if they did nothing, people tend to expect a delay attack, and keep guarding, opening themselves up to throw again.
Also, can't get your opponent get a 0-frame if they manage to input throw right after you stand up, but before you release guard? Maybe it's not possible... not sure how the math on that works?
_________________________
If you give a man a fire, he's warm for a day. If you set a man on fire, he's warm for the rest of his life.
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#194484 - 2008-02-26 10:22
Re: Fuzzy guard ~ option select attack
[Re: Sorias]
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KoD
Old Hand
Registered: 2002-07-05
Loc: Austin, Texas, Y'all
XBL GT: KoD VFDC
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What happens after that is sort of a seperate guessing game...
Sort of, but not really. I'm talking about a purely mechanical option select, same timing regardless of what opponent does. You might as well say ETEG is a separate guessing game after the initial evade and before the throw escapes; in practice, it's just one single guess.
Also, can't get your opponent get a 0-frame if they manage to input throw right after you stand up, but before you release guard?
With what i'm talking about, i'm fairly certain the only window for delay throw is to time a 0-frame to hit them right before they crouch (which is a hell of a lot harder to do than the option select i'm talking about), because after they're done crouching, they don't necessarily have any fully standing frames (especially from a crouchdash). Even if they do have fully standing frames, there aren't very many of them at all.
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#194514 - 2008-02-26 14:22
Re: Fuzzy guard ~ option select attack
[Re: KoD]
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Franz
Enthusiast
Registered: 2006-11-20
Loc: London
XBL GT: Franz Stampede
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If the opponent tried an immediate throw, it will whiff, and your attack / 0 frame throw will come out.
It will whiff just becase of fuzzy guarding, right?
_________________________
Eating lows like a n00b since 1998.
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#194527 - 2008-02-26 15:20
Re: Fuzzy guard ~ option select attack
[Re: KoD]
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Sorias
Addict
Registered: 2007-11-02
Loc: Seattle
XBL GT: Sorias
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Sort of, but not really. I'm talking about a purely mechanical option select, same timing regardless of what opponent does. You might as well say ETEG is a separate guessing game after the initial evade and before the throw escapes; in practice, it's just one single guess.
I understand what you're saying. It's just that your option select seems designed to guard against delay throw, and delay throw only. I could just as well say that I fuzzy guard and then always immediately standing guard because it's an option select that keeps me safe from high delay attacks 100% of the time. It's certainly not a bad idea to do what you're describing, it's just not as powerful as you seem to think. Fuzzy guard will completely block standard nitaku options, which tends to mean you're guarding against the "majority" of possible attacks that you could predict. Adding this immediate abare attack on the end, is guarding against some options, sure... but less than the majority.
With an ETEG, you tend to be trying to input all the throw escapes as a single motion, if you can do the entire ETEG in like 12 frames or less, that's success, there's no way in hell you're "hit checking" the evade before you decide whether to input the throw escapes or not (it's probably possible to input the throw escapes late enough to hit check, and still successfully escape... I won't debate that, it's just unnecessary, why would anyone bother trying, when the throw escapes are essentially "free", you have enough time to input them whether your opponent decided to throw or not).
_________________________
If you give a man a fire, he's warm for a day. If you set a man on fire, he's warm for the rest of his life.
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#194536 - 2008-02-26 16:24
Re: Fuzzy guard ~ option select attack
[Re: Sorias]
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KoD
Old Hand
Registered: 2002-07-05
Loc: Austin, Texas, Y'all
XBL GT: KoD VFDC
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... guard against delay throw, and delay throw only.
no. It guarantees that if they throw immediately, they will be punished for it, no chance to guard, no reaction time involved.
if you can do the entire ETEG in like 12 frames or less. . . .the throw escapes are essentially "free", you have enough time to input them whether your opponent decided to throw or not).
Exactly, the entire fuzzy guard ~ attack motion takes about 12 frames, and the attack is essentially "free"; you have enough time to input it whether your opponent decided to throw or attack.
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#194537 - 2008-02-26 16:32
Re: Fuzzy guard ~ option select attack
[Re: KoD]
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Sorias
Addict
Registered: 2007-11-02
Loc: Seattle
XBL GT: Sorias
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It guarantees punishing the whiffed throw, huh?... well, duh, they're stuck in a throw whiff animation, I have more than enough time to hit check that their arms are flailing around uselessly, and then 0-frame if I want... this doesn't need to be mechanical to allow you to punish.
The problem, is, following you succesfully fuzzying, either you actually ducked a throw or whiffed a mid... in which case, grats you won, you have the advantage, plus either some frames of blockstun, or the throw whiff animation to assess the situation, and respond accordingly, so the followups don't need to be automatic, this is all just side effects of the initial fuzzy guard.
However, if your opponent did nothing, then you're back at neutral. If you're at neutral, then attack beats throw, throw beats guard, and guard beats attack. However, there's no especially good reason to choose one of those three, except yomi. Whatever you do, it should be automatic, because you're right that there's really no time to hit check... but I'm going to choose what to do after I fuzzy based on my knowledge of my opponent, not just attack after every single fuzzy.
_________________________
If you give a man a fire, he's warm for a day. If you set a man on fire, he's warm for the rest of his life.
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