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4,3+P Major Counter

Discussion in 'Akira' started by EmpNovA, Oct 30, 2009.

  1. sanjuroAKIRA

    sanjuroAKIRA Well-Known Member

    IIRC 66kk does combo in the lifebar in dojo.
     
  2. Manjimaru

    Manjimaru Grumpy old man

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    I would appreciate if you wouldn't use the abbreviation "IIRC" in here.

    And you're wrong, it doesn't combo. With CH [4][3][P] that is.
     
  3. sanjuroAKIRA

    sanjuroAKIRA Well-Known Member

    Am I?

    Buffer faster.

    For [4][3][P][6][6][K][K] the lifebar indicates a combo of about 80, but the little counter indicates 2 hits & 40 dmg.

    Why the numbers don't jive I can't say. Maybe those are the numbers for crouching normal hit? Perhaps someone has some insight. Training mode/dojo often does weird stuff for one reason or another.

    MC [6][6][K][K] is 57 & crouching MC is 46 or 47 so it isn't that.

    I used IIRC because I didn't have the console in front of me & I couldn't recall any specifics. I hope you and others can bear with me in the future when I use IIRC as a disclaimer for information I'm fuzzy on which people may be interested in investigating for themselves. This isn't anyone's dissertation after all.

    In any event, you have to buffer DJK so fast(if it does, in fact, combo) that I doubt you can hit check the counter 43p & go for it safely.

    edit: not that it should matter but tests were conducted vs lei
     
  4. Plague

    Plague Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    plague-cwa
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    K. Iono. Checkd wit muh BFF. Sup. WTF? Wat U think bout IIRC on VFDC? Aight? STFU DUDE! TTYL Melon Farmer.
     
  5. EmpNovA

    EmpNovA Well-Known Member

    Opponent Standing:
    [4] [3] [+] [P] (MC) [​IMG] [4] [6] [+] [P] (67 damage, knockdown)
    [4] [3] [+] [P] (MC) [P] [K] (69 damage, +4 advantage)

    Opponent Crouching:
    [4] [3] [+] [P] (MC) [​IMG] [4] [6] [+] [P] (62 damage, knockdown)
    [4] [3] [+] [P] (MC) [P] [K] (64 damage, +4 advantage)

    - - -
    Followups from [4] [3] [+] [P](MC) that failed to combo:

    [5] [6] [6] [+] [P] (DE fails to combo, hits opponent causing stagger)*
    [5] [6] [6] [6] [+] [P] (SDE fails to combo, hits opponent causing knockdown)**
    [5] [6] [6] [+] [K] [K] (Renkantai fails to combo)***
    [5] [2] [+] [K] (standing kick fails to combo)****
    [5] [K] (low kick fails to combo)*****

    *A normal hit Dashing Elbow does 20 damage and staggers crouching opponents. An MC Dashing Elbow does 30 damage. After b,df+p (MC) an immediate Dashing Elbow causes the opponent to stagger and take 20 damage (normal hit). If you set the CPU in training mode to counter hit then immediately perform a dashing elbow after the MC overhead the DE doesn't combo nor does it hit as a Major Counter.

    **Super Dashing Elbow does the same as above except that it knocks the opponent down. SDE on normal hit knocks crouching opponents down.

    ***Rekantai hits as a Major Counter if you set the CPU to counter hit and then try f,f+kk after an MC overhead.

    ****Standing kick hits as a Major Counter and causes a knockdown.

    *****Low kick hits as a normal hit (10 damage) but does not combo.

    So some followup moves do not show up on the combo counter in training mode yet don't hit as a Major Counter even though the CPU is set to counter hit.

    As much as I tried I could not get DE, SDE, or Renkantai to connect after an MC overhead. I have solid execution so I'm inclined to believe that those will not connect even with the best execution.

    Standing kick is 14 frames, if an MC overhead is +14 then standing kick should connect, but it does not combo. It connects as an MC hit if done immediately. However low kick if done immediately, another 14 frame move, connects as a normal attack. I've been absent from VF for the last two years or so I'm not understanding exactly what's going on here. Can someone enlighten me as to why one 14 frame move connects differently than another?

    Everything was tested on El Blaze, Aoi, and Wolf.
    - - -
    Considering that the followups in my first post are technically combos should they not be added to the combo section for VF5 Akira?
     
  6. Manjimaru

    Manjimaru Grumpy old man

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    I meant use of iirc as in "I didnt actually test this stuff"

    If [6][6][K][K] would combo, explain to me why a simple [K] DOESNT combo even though they are same speed and no chance of wasted frames either?

    Well you could make a video of it, of course, then I would shut up.
     
  7. Manjimaru

    Manjimaru Grumpy old man

    PSN:
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    The lifebar is lazy and is not to be trusted in most cases.

    We should be looking at the combo counter. The only exception that I accept are backturned combos that may combo and not show on combo counter because opponent actually recovers but is unable turn around in time to block.
     
  8. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
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    I've verified the following against a human opponent:

    [4][3][P] CH -> [1][K] (14f exe) is a combo
    [4][3][P] CH -> [6][6][P] (14f exe) is a combo
    [4][3][P] CH -> [6][6][6][P] (14f exe) is a combo

    In all three cases, my opponent was unable to guard the followup. The lifebar showed the attacks connecting as one combo, however the hit meter doesn't. So I think there's a bug with the training mode hit meter which stops counting a combo when the execution time of the guaranteed hit equals the amount of advantage.

    As for:

    [4][3][P] CH -> [K] (14f exe) is not a combo

    I just think something weird is going on with [K] hitbox, and
    I'm convinced the advantage after [4][3][P] CH is +14.

    Not sure why Empnova tested [2][K] as this is a 15f attack and not guaranteeed.
     
  9. Manjimaru

    Manjimaru Grumpy old man

    PSN:
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    If those combo, then
    (CH) [4][3][P] -> [4][4][6][P] -> followup
    would propably also combo.

    Akiras [6][6][K] is also a 14f attack.

    As for the [K] you sure you didnt press forward during it? As afaik it slows the attack down. For many characters [6_][K] is different attack from [K].
     
  10. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
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    I don't know why you're suggesting to input [4][4][6][P] when it has already been stated in this thread, a number of times, that you can do a standing palm from crouch by entering [4][6][5][P].

    But anyways, [4][4][6][P] from crouch will always result in a double palm. But even if we pretend that we could get a standing palm from this input, it still wouldn't work because the back dash that makes you go from crouch to stand will waste a frame, thus executing in 15f instead of 14f which is no longer guaranteed.

    So back to [4][6][5][P] from crouch. Well, it doesn't combo, and the only explanation I can think of is that this input must also waste a frame. Against the CPU, it results in a CH which means that CPU was able to move first.

    As for the [K], I tried both [5][K] and [6_][K]. Neither connected. Again, I'm ruling this as a hit box issue because the standing [K] is certainly a 14f attack (I tested again to be sure). And I forgot to add earlier that [6][6][K][K] also combos.

    Anyways, I've spent more time on this move than I care for.
     
  11. EmpNovA

    EmpNovA Well-Known Member

    What? According the VF5 version C command list for Akira it's a 14 frame attack.
     
  12. Feck

    Feck Well-Known Member Content Manager Akira

    [2][K] has a 16 frame EXE according to the command list [​IMG]
     
  13. EmpNovA

    EmpNovA Well-Known Member

    [​IMG] [+] [K]

    I was talking about this actually.
     
  14. Manjimaru

    Manjimaru Grumpy old man

    PSN:
    manjimaruFI
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    freedfrmtheReal
    Because its hundred times easier? And no, it doesnt result in a doublepalm. Its in my opinion standard method for performing standing moves from crouching with for instance Sarah combo
    CH FL [3][K] -> [G] -> [2][P] -> [6][6][4][K] -> [P][P][2][K] As for wasting frames or not I cannot say as I cant test this stuff solo..

    Your effort is however appreciated, thank you. [​IMG]
     
  15. SicilianVizzini

    SicilianVizzini Well-Known Member

    The connection I’m seeing is that 14f or less Mid hits from [4][3][P] (which is a mid itself) on major counter hit will combo, and highs or lows like [4][6][P] or [1][K]/[​IMG][K] won’t.
    I think the reason for this might be related to the [8] or [2], [P][P] side step option that follows on from [4][3][P]; is this mid finish position for Akira, an option select limitation of the move? or alternatively is there a 1f defensive (fuzzy)advantage for high/low guard for opponent as they recover from mid?

    I would suggest that to remove ambiguity from attack, that a fastest input of [4][3][P](counter hit),[G][8],[4][6][P] or
    [4][3][P](counter hit),[G][2],[1][K] might work, but something makes me doubt that either these inputs would combo.

    Similar to the input lockout that follows Akira’s [4][6][P]+[G], where buffering is impossible until the opponent reaches (or is near) maximum height, I think that any move that isn’t mid hitting from [4][3][P] will lose frame/s while Akira has to waste frame/s transitioning from a mid finishing position to a low or high position, implying that only ~13f or less high or low will combo on a [4][3][P] counter hit.

    Obviously without the ability to test with a real opponent, this is just hypothesis for others here to correct. But it does seem like there is a special case or animation issue as to why some high/low moves that should combo from this situation, seemingly don’t.
     
  16. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
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    Wow, you think [4][4][6][P] is significantly more easier than [4][6][5][P]? [​IMG]

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And no, it doesnt result in a doublepalm.</div></div>
    You're right, it won't proivded you buffer it perfectly. If you don't then you will get a double palm.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its in my opinion standard method for performing standing moves from crouching</div></div>
    No opinion necessary -- it's already a known fact. The [4][6][5] method for Akira is just an exception to the rule that works for Akira in this particular case.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As for wasting frames or not I cannot say as I cant test this stuff solo.. </div></div>
    Again, this is already a known fact that using dash inputs to perform standing moves from crouch wastes (at least) 1 frame and it's been that way since VF4. So your preferred, hundred-times-easier input method isn't even theoretically guaranteed. And from my testing, I just happen to think that [4][6][5][P] also wastes 1 frame.

    @SicilianVizzini, I think you might chasing a red herring there since [1][K] does combo. The single palm [4][6][P] doesn't appear to combo either due to a frame being wasted on the input method ([4][6][5][P] or [4][4][6][P]), or something funky going on with the hit box.
     
  17. Manjimaru

    Manjimaru Grumpy old man

    PSN:
    manjimaruFI
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    freedfrmtheReal
    Yes because I can't do the latter more than 1 out of 15 tries. (With failure resulting in a double palm) The former has 100% success rate.

    Like I said, I didn't know for sure whether or not using dash to buffer standing moves from crouching wastes frames or not. This is like the only example that comes into my mind where wasting that 1 frame is crucial.

    It's in my opinion not even necessary that it would, because all that matters is to tell the game what input we want to do, not whether or not the character is actually standing. The only REASON why we need this, is if there exists a FC move with the same input that the move we want to perform from standing. You can do [P] from crouching and it ends up in a standing punch. Theres no need for 1 frame to stand up as far as I know.

    I am not blessed with programmable joysticks or a supply of helpers, Im just trying to go forward with reasoning so sorry if I cause unnecessary 'effort' :S
     
  18. Manjimaru

    Manjimaru Grumpy old man

    PSN:
    manjimaruFI
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    This is the same as his [1][K]
     

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