H2H: Wolf vs. Jeffery

Re: Ice-9 is stupid

BK: At this point it's clear that no matter what discussion there is here on vfdc, no one's going to change their mind about wolf, about ss, or about vf. So we should probably leave it at this.
Let me say that I consider BK's video trick plays. Just because you can get it work in training doesn't mean you should do it in vs. play with people your level. The required circumstances that these will work will lose you games in the long run ( open stance, you do this, I do that, then you do this, I use SS to beat you ). I don't see people do it on videos, I don't see BK doing it on his vs. videos, and I can't do it myself. IMO SS is not something you should toss out just because you feel lucky, and if your focus with wolf is not to set up throws, you will lose in the long run.

 

Re: Ice-9 is stupid

Srider, you're talking about when Wolf is in a small disadvantage. BK is (I think) talking about when the opponent is at a small diss and resorts to 2p or ETEG or even poking with a highp (which is very valid for those with faster punches) etc.

Why would you backdash throw in a small diss instead of using regular defensive techniques (fuzzy up to 2) is something I do not understand. It's not like you can backdash from mids in a much bigger diss then that unless it's short elbows maybe. That wolf has PGS when backdashing from an attack isn't really an issue cause range won't be an issue (dmg will be nice ofc). So I really question backdash throw being "perfect against safe play and poking" if you're talking about wolf doing it from a diss. Fuzzy and ETEG / ECD would both be ranked higher in my book. With Fuzzy and ETE you win against a direct throw/attack. Backdash might get you out of throwrange but it's kinda a huge maybe and you'll loose to most attacks.

Whiffed 2p's etc are one thing, backdash PGS (where you can't block during your backdash animation or interupt anything when the opponent presses a nitaku) is another.

If Wolf were to get a float against the ARE I don't understand how it could be a low float as it will be MC unless the opponent gets hit right between his cd input and his attackinput which is, like, 1 or 2 frames. That's not gonna happen. But ARE would probably rape SS in the first place since SS is 20 frames and you waste frames on the BD, killing of your frames of advantage going into the situation so you can catch the evader is kinda the idea behind BD SS. Maybe specialproperties of SS would win against some of the attacks that the opponent can push with from ARE but most probably not as we're most likely dealing with mids like shoulderrams, kage upper etc.

But, yeah back again - I don't consider backdash throw to be a valid option/tech when you're in a small diss, you're even fucked against a delay attack so might aswell do your ECD/ETE/Box and throw from there right? Can you ellaborate?

"Why would I want to take 71 dmg on normal hit SS when I can take 80-100?"

Cause you win over two things, the 2p and the evade and it can't be escaped if you guessed correctly unlike a throw against good competition which can TE on whiffs. On top of that you win against continued high p (very valid for 11frame punchers), sabakis (on MC), rte / YY etc. This would be the reason for using it in adv against someone who continues attacking (poker) and on top of that might take defensive action of another sort. SS's property of going under some mids helps as well.

Can you give an example of backdashing with Wolf from a small diss > throwing against mids exept against short elbows (Kage/Sarah)? Would be fun to see some flowcharts or applications.

/KiwE

 

Re: Ice-9 is stupid

[ QUOTE ]
Srider said:

No offense taken in the first place, but thanks.

Backdash throw is perfect against safe play and poking.
When wolf is in small disadvantage, back dash throw kills players who poke with safe mids. But yeah, I would not back dash throw if I anticipate ARE, but I wouldn't do SS either cause ARE has a good chance of interrupting it if not timed correctly, you will also get a low float which doesn't combo well.

[/ QUOTE ]

no you are right, backdash SS would lose to ARE for example kage's FCd~ f+p.

but ARE played with low P, will lose to backdash SS. ARE in general is a delicate situation, because it's designed to react against disadvantage ~ and perform an instant response. which means *any* kind of tamper with instant response would screw it up. if wolf can narrow down a situation to ARE rising upper i'd say that backdash SS has done a good job there~

 

Re: Ice-9 is stupid

Yeah, I definitely agree with that. That goes back to Wolf having to play with precision. Which depending on your play style is a calculated risk that you take.

 

Re: Ice-9 is stupid

I moved the deathmatch posts to jamboree.

 

Re: Ice-9 is stupid

I haven't really read this whole thread, but IMO:

if you play Wolf and you shy away from using the Short Shoulder, you're missing the point of Wolf. Wolf is the game's most pure Power character, and the SS is his only true Air Combo starter. It causes great damage and can push the oppt very far w/ the right followups. A good Wolf can turn a counter hit SS into almost 50% damage or a RO easily.

-12 is NOTHING compared to the reward this attack offers. While it is a little slow, it's evasive properties balance this; and when you compare it's recovery to attacks which offer similar combo ability from other characters, you'll see -12 isn't nearly a bad as -13 or 14, which is really the norm for an attack w/ this much potential, even Dodge attacks are -14. If you're scared of -12, you're probably playing the wrong character.

just the opinion of someone who likes to play Wolf.

Bryan

 

Re: Ice-9 is stupid

You should read the whole thread. There are examples of better rewards than what the SS offers. I even gave examples of where I believe SS is best used and offers the most rewards. Like I keep on saying, this is a discussion about how wolf compares with jeffry, not a bashing of wolf's moves. It's a discussion of relative comparison, not inherent merits.

Also, if people didn't know... I'm a dedicated wolf player too... haha