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Jean Disadvantage from evaded strings

Discussion in 'Jean' started by Tricky, Jul 1, 2013.

  1. Tricky

    Tricky "9000; Eileen Flow Dojoer" Content Manager Eileen

    Evading & Punishing Jean’s Strings

    All frames are based on evading at the first available frame and punishing at the first available frame on successful evade. They also assume no delaying of Jean's string. If he delays and you evade, you will have MORE adv than noted here. This list is only denoting guaranteed punishment so the lowest available exe frames are only reported. You are evading the last move in the denoted string.

    All his charge moves leave you at same adv as his PPP(max charge) or (partial charge) moves.

    +4
    PP (frames available depend on how long they delayed string)
    4PP

    Test is 17F move beats 12f 2p while 18f move loses.
    Evade to his front and you get sidethrow, evade to his back you get front throws on the PP.

    +8
    PPP(max charge) P

    +11
    PPP
    4K+GP

    +12
    PK
    33PK
    KP
    4KP
    4KK [You will be tracked by followup P if evading to his front]

    +13
    PPP(max charge)K [no frame adv if follow-up used]
    6PP [no frame adv if follow-up used]
    4PK

    +14
    PPK
    P6P
    PKP
    2KK
    3KK
    4K+GPP

    +15
    3PP

    +16
    PPP(max charge) KK
    46PK

    +17
    PPP(max charge) PPK
    KPP
    4KKP

    +20
    PP2K

    +21
    4PP(max charge)
    4KKK
    9KP

    +24
    PKP(max charge)

    +26
    PPP (max charge)
    4KP(max charge) [must evade to his back or you will be tracked]

    +30
    PPP(charge) K
    33PK(max charge)
    9KP(max charge)






    #FGT #WithLove
    [​IMG]
     
    no_w_h_ere, G0d3L, CheekyChi and 9 others like this.
  2. SDS_Overfiend1

    SDS_Overfiend1 Well-Known Member

    Online... Discard all this shit. Ive evaded on first active frame and attacked on first active frame and hit nothing. Jean is an enigma.. You can never figure him out. You can only hope to get lucky every now and then.. Too many user friendly and powerful tools that are easily accessible. LTE and lots of Low risk high reward move makes him fearsome and frustating for certain characters
     
    Chibiaya likes this.
  3. Cozby

    Cozby OMG Custom Title! W00T!

    PSN:
    CozzyHendrixx
    XBL:
    Stn Cozby
  4. Tricky

    Tricky "9000; Eileen Flow Dojoer" Content Manager Eileen

    I put it in the bottom, but it was too small. I like urs more.
     
  5. Lucky_GT

    Lucky_GT Well-Known Member


    Sounds like you are describing Jacky! You know that matchup is in Jacky's favor right? : P

    @Cozby - Can you avatar-size that for me?

    @Tricky - Nice thread! Punishing evaded strings is pretty important. I don't know 100% what advantage I'm at for most of these situations but I know what I can punish with. Like Jacky's 1P+K,P,P and 1P+K,P,K are both launch punishable on evade after guarding the string.
     
    CheekyChi and Tricky like this.
  6. SDS_Overfiend1

    SDS_Overfiend1 Well-Known Member

    Not Online GT.
     
  7. Lucky_GT

    Lucky_GT Well-Known Member

    What exactly changes for Jean or Jacky with a few frames of delay and a 30 frame buffer window?

    As you can see I have 0 problem fuzzy guarding NH P, 2P. I punish properly on evade and in general do all of the same things I apply offline. What is the problem?

    On Topic - I usually just pick the key strings from characters and punish those properly.

    Jacky - 1P+K,P etc.
    Goh - 3K,P
    Eileen - 6P+K.P,P.
     
    CheekyChi, Chibitox and JacobEvo like this.
  8. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member Bronze Supporter

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
    XBL:
    Akai JC
    Tricky - I'm not sure I understand your test method. For the [P][P][P] string, I would guess you would have ~26 frames advantage against Jean.

    From some quick tests, in which...:
    1) I set CPU Jean to immediately guard or do low punch attack after performing the [P][P][P]
    2) I successfully evaded Jean's first [P] in the 3 strike string.

    The CPU Jean was not able to guard or interrupt my 14 frame high attack or 25 frame non-evasive mid attack.
     
  9. Tricky

    Tricky "9000; Eileen Flow Dojoer" Content Manager Eileen


    We talked about it in shoutbox but for others who have same question. You are evading the last hit in the string and punishing. You don't have 26 frames if you evade the 3rd P in the PPP string, you only got 11frames to work with.
     
    akai likes this.
  10. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member Bronze Supporter

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
    XBL:
    Akai JC
    Yeah, talked about it on shoutbox. When I try evading the last Punch though in the [P][P][P] string though, I still am able to get:

    1) a 14 frame high attack beat out Jean's low punch followup (at least 14 frame advantage)
    2) 25 frame mid beat out low punch (at least 13 frame advantage)

    Based on the command list frame data, I would guess a person should get ~16 frame advantage if evaded at the very first frame available from the last punch in the attack string.

    Edit: I was able to get a 16 frame mid attack to connect for a hit when CPU Jean was made to guard after [P][P][P]
     
  11. Tricky

    Tricky "9000; Eileen Flow Dojoer" Content Manager Eileen

    My tests are based on someone trying to block. You're likely to find different advantages against someone who chooses to abare. When I recorded the CPU to do PPP I made sure to hold G as soon as I hit the last P so that he'd be guarding from the very first frame. If you don't do this you can get a mCH with moves that aren't guaranteed. I don't know why but if you don't guard, even hold guard, you'll end up getting mCH when you would have been able to block. I'm going to guess this is what you're coming across.
     
  12. Feck

    Feck Well-Known Member Content Manager Akira

    Nice post Tricky, we could do with threads like this for other characters strings :)

    Well I never...
     
  13. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member Bronze Supporter

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
    XBL:
    Akai JC
    From shoutbox again -
    1. Yesterday at 5:55 AM - akai:
      If you have time - see if you get different results - when you successfully evaded a non-delay PPP versus a PPP string with the last strike delayed.
    2. Yesterday at 5:55 AM - akai:
      night
    3. Today at 6:11 AM - Tricky:
      the PPP wasn't delayed only the PP
    4. Today at 6:11 AM - Tricky:
      you'll get more adv if the last P is delayed.
    5. Today at 6:12 AM - Tricky:
      for punishment purposes I wasn't interested in if someone delayed. You get more adv that way tho
    The above shoutbox exchange I think is where we perceived difference in frames and not because of abare followups. For the [P][P][P] example, depending on when you exactly evaded the last punch, the frame advantage can range from:

    approximately plus 4 frames (evading in the very last frame of attack's execution) to approximately plus 16 frames (evading at the very first frame of of attack's execution).

    Based on what you wrote from Shoutbox and your original post:
    1) Jean does [P][P][P] with no delay input between the second and third punch.
    2) Jean's opponent that guarded the second punch is still in some guard stun when the third punch is animating.
    3) The successful evade of third punch at the moment immediately after guard stun is over came out to be ~+11

    From my tests:
    1) Jean does [P][P][P] with delay input between the second and third punch.
    2) Jean's opponent that guarded the second punch recovers from the guard stun earlier into the animation of the delayed inputed third punch.
    3) The successful evade of third punch at the moment after guard stun is over came out to be ~+16

    I think it is important to note the potential range of frame disdavantage/advantage since there are more variables to consider for attack strings. In this post specifically, it is recovering from guard stun animation.

    Another example of guard stun animation being a variable is Jean's and likely most characters [P][P]. After guarding Jean's first punch in [P][P], the second punch in [P][P] cannot be evaded if there was no delay input from the first and second punch. Jean's opponent would still be in guard stun animation when the second punch completes its execution frames. Jean's opponent that guarded the first punch can successfully evade the second punch only if the second punch input was delayed. Jean's opponent have recover from the guard stun animation before the second punch completes its execution frames.

    For [P][P], depending on when you exactly evaded the last punch, the frame advantage can range from:

    approximately plus 3 frames (evading in the very last frame of attack's execution) to approximately plus 13 frames (evading at the very first frame of attack's execution).
     
    Tricky likes this.
  14. Tricky

    Tricky "9000; Eileen Flow Dojoer" Content Manager Eileen

    By all means find the range of frames you can work with. I just don't see a way to reliably delay strings to their max without a computer controlled controller. For my purposes, I only will test for the least amount of frames I can get from evading which means no delay. Maybe someone else can come through and add the max possible frames you can get.

    I'm curious in the example you put tho, why did you say +4 frames when it's +11. Or are you referring to something else? Strings like Jacky's 1P+KPP are strings where I actually see knowing the delay punish frames to be useful. Though I suspect that you will get tracked if someone were to not delay and you were to use a delay exe frame punish move.
     
  15. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member Bronze Supporter

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
    XBL:
    Akai JC
    1. approximately plus 4 frames - evading in the very last frame of the third punch's execution. So a late successful evade input.
    2. approximately plus 11 frames - evading immediately the third punch after blocking the second punch with no delay input of the third punch.
    3. approximately plus 16 frames - evading at the very first frame of of attack's execution.

    The ~+4-+16 frame range was based on calculations from the available frame data in the command list. So the range should always be tested since the frame data is not necessary always accurate.
     
  16. Tricky

    Tricky "9000; Eileen Flow Dojoer" Content Manager Eileen

    The command list data doesn't give you what you need to calculate strings like you can for single attacks. This is because you don't have the value for your true adv/dis if someone is to continue a string. The equation breaks down.
     
  17. MarlyJay

    MarlyJay Moderator - 9K'ing for justice. Staff Member Gold Supporter

    PSN:
    MarlyJay
    XBL:
    MarlyJay
    It doesn't as far as i know. the exe for the 2nd hit in the string, assuming no delay, begins immediately after the active frames for the 1st hit. You then use the total frames for the 2nd hit. Can't you calculate what you need to know from there?
     
  18. Tricky

    Tricky "9000; Eileen Flow Dojoer" Content Manager Eileen


    If that were true things like Jacky's 4P1P wouldn't be unblockable from sideturn. If someone can break down using only the command list frame data why that is unblockable then we'd know what we need to make a formula for strings. Using what you just suggest, Jacky's 4P2K should be unblockable on block also but it isn't. Different strings let you cancel out different frames in the previous move. We currently have no way of knowing which string allows for what outside of raw testing.
     
  19. MarlyJay

    MarlyJay Moderator - 9K'ing for justice. Staff Member Gold Supporter

    PSN:
    MarlyJay
    XBL:
    MarlyJay
    With 4P2K, why would that be unblockable on blocking 4P?

    In regards to 4P1P from the side, It's a bug. There is absolutely no reason for it to be unblockable along with Kage's 4P+KP from sideturn, but Eileens 4P+KK isn't. (Apart from fuck Eileen)
     
    Tricky likes this.
  20. Tricky

    Tricky "9000; Eileen Flow Dojoer" Content Manager Eileen

    Nvm I looked at the frames wrong. Jean also gets unblockables that dont' make frame sense either cuz of strings.
     

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