Jean Disadvantage from evaded strings

I updated the first post to clarify the meaning of the frames and noted the fact that if someone dealys you will have more adv than reflected in this post. It's not obvious so I added it for clarity sake.

 

I have something to add here since it relates to what you guys are discussing.

When calculating frame values for strings it's important to note that recovery frame values for all attacks within a string do not factor into the equation except for the final one. For example, in a 3-attack string you calculate:

start-up + active frames of first attack of string, then add...
start-up + active frames of second attack of string, then add...
start-up + active frames + recovery frames of third attack of string

Knowing this info would give you an idea if an evade > attack of choice could possibly interrupt a string with a counter hit, assuming the first attack of that string is successfully evaded.

Kruza

 

All this is really good info. One thing all players should more often is GE Guard evade. Usually the last hit on a string more frames so its more punishable for a low dmg counter hit and GE eliminates tracking giving you a perfect evade. But this risky though because of players mix ups. For ex jacky's 1PPP is very punishable like GT said. But if they stop and do a throw, you'll do a failed evade. Plus there wont be any time for you to failed evade cancel so the only thing you can do is ETE. Still risky though but worth it if you guess correctly.

 

Not true. If you evade after Jacky 1P+K or 1P+K,P and they stop for and immediate throw not only can you avoid it with ECD, it actually times itself as a fuzzyattempt in that framesituation.

 

Nice job tricky.

I still need to read all this frames debate you had with Akai and understand what's the problem.

EDIT
What follows it's partially wrong (the part about the delayed followup)
Look at Akai's ad Drift's post for the right analysis.
/EDIT

Most (haven't checked all) mid-mid strings have the first blow to be -6 on guard.
This value it's not random because, as Combolammas already pointed out, you can ECD to make the throw whiff and most of the time also guard the followup (it depends on the string)

For example Goh's 3KP.
3K is -6 on block and followup P is 18 frames.
In this case after blocking the 3K an ECD will make the throw whiff, successfully evade an immediate followup P and block in time a delayed one (after an ECD you can guard a mid after 17 frames)

Then there's Kage's 46P+KP.
46P+K is again -6 on block while the followup P is 16 frames.
In this case after you guarded 46P+K an ECD will lose against an immediate followup P but that is balanced by the fact that Kage is -1 when this P connects on NH (while in the same situation Goh with his 3KP gets a +5)

Another example is Jacky's 1P+KPP.
If 1P+K is block Jacky is at -6 with the followup being 18 frames: after blocking 1P+K you can avoid the mixup throw/mid with an ECD.
Instead after blocking the second blow of this string Jacky is at -5 with the last P being 15 frames.
In this case an ECD will lose against both throw and mid but this is due to a balance factor because the last hit on NH vs opponent standing or crouching is -2 (thanks Pana).
In this case the best thing to do is just to crouch most of the time and kill the throw attempt or the followup high kick.
Mixing it up stand or low guard will make the risk/reward for Jacky very bad (especially versus charachters with big damage on whiffed highs like Lau)

Thanks to Pana who made me look in details this type of situations.

 

EDIT
What follows it's partially wrong (the part about the delayed followup)
Look at Akai's ad Drift's post for the right analysis.
/EDIT


I really can't find where in my post I said something that could lead to a different idea of block stun/static difference/cancelling/etc.

I'll try to explain myself better.

The static difference (i.e. the -6 of Goh's 3K) matters ONLY when you take in account the throw case: the string is interrupted and there isn't any cancel involved.
From -6 Goh goes for the throw that will connect, from the opponent's prospective, 10+6=16 frames later.

If Goh decide to go immediatly with the followup the opponent's ECD will result in a successful evade (the dash/crouch dash cancel will not come out because it's an option select)

If Goh does a delayed followup (even a 1 frame delay) then the evade will result in a failed one because the attack has not started yet but it will cancel itself with a CD the will let the opponent guard in time the 18 frames followup.

I don't wanna sound like the first of the class guy but what you get in every frame data is the static difference and it is calculated in this way:

static difference = (guard stun frames) - (recovery frames) - (active frames) + 1

 

Delaying a string follow-up actually makes ECDing it easier. You will not get a failed evade and then NH by the 2nd hit. You will evade it just fine. The only time you should get a guard after ECD is if the opponent stopped the string entirely and started another attack; eg If Goh does 3K, 3KP, and you ECD after guarding the first 3K, you will fail+cancel your evade, guard the 3K and be evade-jailed and thus have to truly guess whether Goh will finish that 2nd 3KP or stop and go for throw.

 

just tried it in the dojo.
Thanks Akai didn't know about it.
I did my homework only on paper looking at the frame data and I was wrong.
What I said about a delayed followup and a failed evade canceled in a CD works only if the first hit doesn't make contact (so it's mostly not useful)

you and Akai are completly right

 

Bolded part. I don't quite get what you are saying here. ECD in this situation evades throws right fine. You also can get up in time to guard even the fastest 6P from Jacky and no matter how much the last string P is delayed it'll get successfully evaded.

 

yeah that's an error.
-5 with a 15 frames to crouch dash after an evade will make the throw whiff.
In addition to a wrong analysis I also failed a simple sum...I'm on a roll