My friends' complaints about the low punch (he uses Aoi).

Okay. Sorry to do this, but I couldn't find much about this topic (I realize it's stupid, but one of my friends believes the low punch (LP) is "cheap" ) while one of the others abuses this move... I insist that LPing isn't cheap and can be quite easily escaped and punished. Basically, he doesn't like to play VF4Evo because he thinks, and I quote, "There isn't a single other game that where every character has one move that is so dominant". So basically, I want help changing his mind. He's a big GGX2 fan, and pretty damn good too. I like the game and all, but I prefer Evo for its complexity... in every situation there is something you can do to counter whatever the opponent is doing.
Note: this isn't saying GGX2 isn't complex (and fun) as hell, I just prefer 3D complexity.
First: please list various situations in which a lot of newbies like to low punch.

Second: then please list various methods of escaping said crouching punch (or anticipating or setting up said situation and then punishing).

Here are mine:

1. During particularly disadvantageous situations (particularly when forced to crouch, massive stagger, or high block stun (example: Brad's slipping right kick)). Another one would be a blocked or missed jab where they use a low punch to attempt to regain the adv.

1A. Bk dash or bk crouch dash. After most low punches it is very easily to (a) stagger the oppt after a missed crouch punch or (b) low throw the oppt.

2. A simple jab or low jab to a throw. Very simple and highly effective tactic at low-level play.

2A. As far as I have seen, you can just jab your way out. Additionally, you could easily just use a fast mid move (elbows, etc.) to further punish your oppt's next move (be it throw or whatever) and score a CH.

So another question I would ask would be: any basic strats for Aoi players against the typical (sigh) jab to throw or low punch to etc...? I would say just use b,b + or back dash to her chop (df + I think)

Edit: Dandy J, that was very helpful. I hope other's will reply as well. And I use Kliff... I get murderlized by his characters especially Testament (stupid web trap) and his Ky (his first character since the first GG) which isn't surprising since Kliff is Kliff... and he owns the game (and he owns VF4Evo now so he should get plenty of practice). However, I am working on my Sol. /versus/images/graemlins/cool.gif He's sweet. Like candy. But with more whoop-ass than sugar.

 

If he plays Aoi and gets +ed a lot, tell him to do a lot of:

A. backdash --> +
B. backdash --> ++
C. backdash --> ++-cancel --> A or B

He should probably be backdashing a lot more in general if he's getting +ed to the point that he calls it cheap.

As for your second question, are you refering to a or + that is blocked or hits?

Firstly, +s are -4 on block, so if you block one, immediately attack back with your own +, or if you can react fast enough, do an elbow (+). If they try to attack again or throw, they will get staggered or hit on counter.

High s are +1 on block (meaning if you block a high , YOU are at a disadvantage). But it is a very small disadvantage, so just backdash and attack or +. In this situation the only thing they can do to beat your + is to do their own.

But you get hit on counter, however, you have to be defensive or guess. + is +5 on CH and high is anywhere from +8 to +10 (HUGE advantage) on CH. +5 is enough advantage to beat your + with a big combo starter, such as Jeffery's Knee (+), and you can't duck a throw at anything more than -2.

So, if you attack, you'll get out of a throw, but get hit on counter of they attack, and if you block you'll get advantage from blokcing an attack, but you could get thrown.

So of course this leads to me telling you to learn how to do EDTEG when you are at a large disadvantage, but this is hard to do on reaction after getting hit with a . So until you learn how to do EDTEG after someone hits you with fast moves, just try and learn people's patterns and make an educated guess. If you think they will attack again, block or evade. If you think they will throw, do a combo starter (like ++).

Also, if they just use + mainly, attacking them back with a (or or ) of your own is not a bad idea, since Aoi's is 11 frames (one frame faster than most characters). So even if you get hit on counter with a +, they can't knee you. Of course you could still get hit with faster attacks, like Akira's SDE (+), or Lei's ++.

Also, if you don't know already, learn frames. Learning how to use frame data will probably help you more than anything I just typed.

And if he still doesn't want to play VF, just learn Sol and do Volcanic Viper / command throw mixups on his ass 24/7 until he quits playing, then subtly suggest that you should play VF (and let him win some).

If that won't work (because he's actually good at XX), then just tell him to QUIT CRYING LIKE A LITTLE BITCH about +. It's not even that good, I hardly ever use it.

 

To kind of reiterate DandyJ.... you friend is not used to the back dash yet...........

That's all he needs at this point... instead of simply guarding or trying to evade etc.... learn to just

probably a weakness among all 2d players trying evo...

 

Sol - FRC the gunflame, rush in. Learn and abuse his dust loops. Abuse the standing K (Sol's LP). Read Grolin's faq in Gamefaqs (egads, gamefaqs!).

Personally, I don't have a big gripe about LP, but I do wish that it was less universal. Light attacks do play a crucial part in the 2Ds as well (e.g., Sol's standing K just aforementioned), but they vary from character to character.

Sol theoretically owns Ky.

Testament is tough, but the FRC gunflame rush does take care of traps, imho. Just be aware of the grave digger loops.

Back dash- yeah, it's in a lot of 2Ds, but they aren't used as nearly enough as in VF4.. prob because the 2Ds are less in your face. There are exceptions - Potemkin's back dash is used pretty much identically to VF4 backdash imho.

 

Umm....agios, they were talking about VF, and just casually mentioned GGXX /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

hey, gotta plugin ggxx whenever you can.. it gets even less coverage than VF4E... funny how the two best fighters in their respective 2D and 3D generas have the smallest communities outside Asia... /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

Actually, he also complains about how Aoi's LP is crappy (I agree, but it isn't worse than Pai's) plus Aoi's various low kicks rule (rather isolated move... but they do).

Anyway, he seems to not want to backdash. As I look thru various vids of Aoi, Goh, Pai, Akira, and Sarah (the characters I am attempting to learn... I'm best at Akira, Goh, and Pai) I noticed that my friend plays similarly to many of the players (stand on their grave... that is, when the oppt gets knocked down he just sits there for a guessing game of blocking then punish or getting a konami reversal and proceed to + to whatever). However, he rarely backdashes then evades (which I do all the time), cancel crouch dashes into guards etc. (I think the whole movement pattern is called minami stepping).

Finally, he also complains about how all the moves in Aoi's repetoire are mid. I explained to him Aoi is designed to gain adv from most situations with the proper move while evading or CHing the oppts attack... not constantly BE on the adv like Sarah or possibly Pai.
So, I guess my next question is:
Any good setups or situations to use her or her + or her infamous +?

Thanks for all the help guys. I love this community. Without it, I would never have gotten really into VF4Evo (nor would I have considered Goh a viable character --- Thanks CreeD!)

Side note: True agios, GGX2 needs more play time, however, I hear that on the east coast and even here on the West Coast, there is way more GGX2 playing than VF4Evo (it's just less public... so yes, I guess that would mean less coverage) since Sammy is quite a bit poorer than Sega.... at least I think so.

 

actually, aoi's strength comes from most of her moves being 1 frame faster than other character's same attack class. Her other strength is the YY stance, if he doesn't like to back dash, use the YY stance. Or even better, use +. I think there is another thread somewhere about Aoi which has a pretty comprehensive break down of her best moves.

 

heh, with my friends its just the opposite. Two of my best buddies only play Pai and i own them with Aoi. One complains a whole hell of a lot more than the other, though..

Anyways just tell him to + it. I mean, damn.. we're talking about Aoi here. Of course he probly just needs to learn to use + more often.. Crumbles on MC, follow up with a and at least.

She's got a ton of moves to deal with low punch.. just have him do training or somethin

 

Predicting (depending on opponent,of course) --evade--low throw is effective.
Little back dash might give you a guaranteed low throw if your opponents misses with correct distance.

 

Put your friend infront of tekken tag for example, pick a Mishima (heihachi for example) and do 1,1,2 until he screams and cries for a function.

 

i usually do an evade attack, but often that doesn't work. cuz the prob is IS SO damn fast, i usually don't even get the time to enter in the reversal. blocking or backing up are better options

 

Oh, I forgot (my shameless Brad plug):

[ QUOTE ]
1. During particularly disadvantageous situations (particularly when forced to crouch, massive stagger, or high block stun (example: Brad's slipping right kick)).

[/ QUOTE ]

If you against Brad after blocking slipping right, the frame advantage he gets is so great his +, will win against your so I wouldn't recommend it.

I think when you have trouble against lp's it's cause of lack of understanding of it's mechanism (but most has already been said). If he does it from a disadvantage, first understand the disadvantage he is at as it only takes -2 frames or so for your elbow to win against his lowpunch (and MC it) - if you get 'd alot you're probably trying to counter with a to big of a move (or throw when you don't have it garanteed) for the advantage you have - that's all really (don't believe the hype of doing alot of backdashes when you are at an advantage).

 

* Parroting my skill theory a little bit here, but...


I've found that most beginners in VF4 who have trouble dealing with LPs do so because they usually lack the

1) Knowlegde of advantage/disadvantage resulting from a guarded, hit, and counter-hit LP; others in this thread have already talked about that

2) Reflexes to recognize the above and REACT to it in time; I actually think this is usually the biggest problem with beginners.

There are really only two ways to fix the latter, but first, make sure you friend has the knowledge of what to do. Then, your friend can either accumulate enough experience such that he can naturally build up the requisite reflexes, or you can put him through the PS2's training program. Both solutions, unfortunately, require time. However, given you friend has extensive experience in another fighting game, it shouldn't be too bad.

From a design perspective, I'd say AM2 made the LP what it is for primarily two reasons:

1) It's a standardizing move for all characters (with two exceptions) and is a tool to "reset" the guessing game. The basketball analogy would be getting the ball back to the point guard at the top of the key to initiatie the half-court offense. Etc.

2) It's a way to separate intermediate/advanced players from beginners. If you think about it, the rewards for an LP aren't actually all that great--in line with its risks, I'd say. However, that's true only if the opponent knows how to deal with LPs and prevents the other player from abusing them. If you know the opponent always falls for LP -> throw, it should be pretty damn easy to win.

When VF4 first came out, there were a LOT of "LP is too strong!" type threads. Now that most experienced players have learned to deal with LPs, you hardly see those types of threads any more.

 

[ QUOTE ]
When VF4 first came out, there were a LOT of "LP is too strong!" type threads. Now that most experienced players have learned to deal with LPs, you hardly see those types of threads any more.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you talking about? lp is still damn good. /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

Well... a lot of Goh players seem to use the LP too much -- but they suck and usually lose -- (which seems to piss my Aoi user / friend off a lot -- since Aoi's LP is quite worthless -- hideous range AND speed). I try not to use the LP except, as stated somewhere before in this topic, as a reset button on yomi. Um... I've referred him to the various topics (they're in his favorites folder now) so we'll see what happens. I think he's pissed that he practiced SC2 (Evo not as much) for a whole year while I took a break from games in general then he comes back on break and I wipe the floor with him within two days of first playing SC2 (Evo wasn't much of a question: Goh rules big time if used properly, limited as he is).

Additionally, he thinks he can buffer stuff better now thanks to all the advice given (he had no idea you could buffer in backdashes, etc. during a hit or guard animation -- only during one of his own motions / attacks). The Using Aoi in Versus thread was especially helpful (I think it's called that).

 

"since Aoi's LP is quite worthless -- hideous range AND speed)"

Dude, WTF are you talking about?

 

I personally blame his missing the LP with Aoi all the time to bad timing (but since he is pretty damn good at just about any other fighting game... his distancing should be good).

However, if you examine everyone's LP, Goh's and Akira's are about average speed and range. Wolf's and Jeffry's LPs are quite nice, they seem to be a good deal faster than most (but range is not so great). Finally, Pai and especially Aoi have the weakest LP's. Aoi's LP barely gets past her knee (since she uses her rear hand, and not her lead hand as I think just about all the characters do) thus her LP is low-range, additionally, her LP is slow considering its range (shorter range == quicker?).

Note: this is however a rather minor part in this topic. The main point is how to deal with LPing (especially for newbies, like my friends, especially one who's never played video games before Evo... ever).

All LP's are relatively weak stat-wise, nonetheless it seems to me that the LPs of each character varies from one to the other, and Aoi and Pai (maybe Sarah too, but I don't use her LP at all) have the worst of the bunch.

 

I'm so glad you based you based your evaluation of everyone's LPs on solid, factual proof.

Everybody's LP is the same dude, except for Lion's and Shun's: 12 frame exectuion, -4 on block, +3 on hit, +5 on counter

Lion: 13 frame execution, -5 on block, +2 on hit, +4 on counter

Shun: 12 frame execution, -5 on block, +2 on hit, +4 on counter

As for range, I have never encountered a situation where one character's LP was less/more likely to hit/whiff than another's, with the execption of Lion (but that's because of his LP being 1 frame slower than the norm, nothing to do with range).