Pai strategies for novices

Hey everyone. I'm kinda new to this franchise and new to this site. It's awesome to see such great content around. As I've mentioned in other posts in the General and Aoi sub-forums, I'm also a DOA player, that's my main game so I'm having trouble getting used to the style of play in Virtua.

One of the things I find most difficult to get used to is that in DOA there's a HUGE amount of moves that stun because the stun game there is much different so it's usual for us DOA players to land a few hits and stop the offensive because the stunned opponent can throw a "counterhold" (reversal). I keep doing this in Virtua with my three characters: Pai, Aoi and Eileen. I land a few moves and just stop to block or attempt a throw but my opponent hits me.

I've tried to simply land one string after the other attempting guaranteed situations but most of the cast just beat my attacks because I'm still not familiar with how frame data works here. So, especifically for Pai, I'd like to get advice on how to keep pressure. Which are the best moves to mantain it and start it from both a distance and close-quarters.

Thanks in advance.

 

66P+K will bring you in low from range and take you into Boktai if you push the stick back. Pai can reverse (counter), but it's very risky unless they keep telegraphing mid or high moves, and (thankfully) works nothing like the DoA counter. Her damage after this seems reduced now, unless you key in the 9KK follow-up.

If you save and watch a replay, you can toggle the frame data on, giving you advantage numbers, tech break points and damage accumulation.

 

Oh look who it is. Mr anti-DOAW.

Anyway. Up close, you need to master the pokes. A simple jab gives frame advantage on block, so, it's useful to do that first in most cases, then do her mid chop (). Lots of beginners want to low punch after they block a high punch for some reason, so, the mid chop will hit them allowing you to keep momentum. They can both be side stepped, but you can escape if they try to throw you and you can block basically everything afterwards. It's also so fast that barely anyone will try to parry it. If they start parrying you can mix up with low attacks and such, or use her grabs, which can give huge follow-up damage.

If under pressure and you see an opening, is a great move. It's 12 frames which is as fast as most character's jabs, but it's a mid move. It's only for short range, so, use it wisely.

If you see your opponent dashing back a lot after a low jab or something like that, try anticipating when they'll do that and use her . It'll put them in a stagger if it hits, allowing you to follow up with a combo.

If your opponent blocks a lot, you can use her while fully charging the kick, for a stagger if blocked, in which case you can often follow-up launch with her 14 frame . If it hits you can obviously do a nice combo.
You can also do an offensive move to the side and use a jab, which will give you enough frame advantage to land a from the side if they do anything other than block or sidestep, which can allow you to get in massive amounts of damage because of the crumple (if that's the correct term). Hitting someone from the side gives additional frame advantage or reduces disadvantage when blocked too. Also, moves that give frame advantage on block are (like already discussed), , , , and her backturned backflip.

After a reversal, the only thing that's guaranteed for all of them is . Some give more frame advantage than the others and can potentially allow more, so you should go into training mode and look what other advantages you have.

Grabs here are useful, but all of them (except catch throws) are breakable, so it's not as simple as in DOA where you grab someone after they do an unsafe move. It's often better to just punish with an attack, and only grab when you're on the offensive.

Check out her top 10 moves thread for specifics about which moves to use in which situations.

 

Thanks for the advice guys. I seem to be doing slightly better online with her.

@NightAntilli: You know me¿ lol

 

New to Pai here too! Thanks for the great input.

What are good round openers for Pai? So far, I'm mixing it up with , 1, 9, 2, and 2

 

1P is good to use to catch people pressing a button at the start of the round in an aggressive manner.

4,6 P+K great to get a free crumple at the start of the round and it has great range too. If this move is blocked it gives Pai alot of pushback on block and pai use it bait stuff afterwards after properly times backdashes. The enemy would be outside of their basic punch range too because of the push back so you can make them pay for using a random P or 2P on reaction.

6,6 P is good thing to use too with decent range and it gives Pai pushback even on block as well opening Pai godlike mixup game baiting random Punches and 2Ps on reactions or whatever after that with a timed backdash as well.

The last 1 will give you for now is 6 P+K, P a good 2 hit mid hitting string that can be cancelled into her new stance after the 6 P+K to bait immediate counters using punches and elbows. and the string can be hit checked as well to make it safe after the 6 P+K too. Hit checking is a very important thing any VF player should know about honestly.

I don't want to give too much away here and let other good pai players get involved as well good luck

 

3P

From there, you get Boktai, P6P follow up, or K which charges or cancels. If they like to rush in hitting buttons at the start, you can try palm with 3P+K. If they like to G and ease back, you could dash up and throw.
Starting with PP4P gives you fast options into back turned stance (2P+K~P+G for example) or continue the string with K2K. Even just PPP at the start may get you a low throw if they're looking to G the low sweep at the end.
7K+G can spin you back and tag them if they're moving forwards at the start of the round, but they may be some chars or moves that beat it. To get back in quick, you can do 66P+k into stance.
2K+G is risky in my view, as it feels a generally slower move, and you may get flipped straight away by chars with fast launchers, like Jacky or Lau.
Against those who like to start with a low hitting move, try your leaping 44KK attack to hop over. I *think* this sideturns them or at least gives good advantage to carry on, with say, 6P+KP, or 6KP4K etc.

 

my favorite opening is P-K-2.... going into bokutai quickly grants you a lot of useful options

 

*pk2 is good but you have ton consider if you're opponent is trying to block or not (mostly if he is careful on block you can start with BK mix up). Cause if he is not, he'll punish you with a fast move.

For a beginner it's pretty hard to use BK stance efficiently. You really have to enter the stance correctly and carrefully.

 

My advice to a novice player:

Learn your max damage combos from the pai dojo combo thread first. Play the game using your natural combo strings and your launchers for your max damage combos

Visit the top ten pai moves, and see which moves you don't use (the ones that you see people listing over and over, like 3 p+k) and make sure you are using them with your max damage combos and natural combo strings.

Once you rich a ceiling, then its time to start learning how to play a poke game with pai using: P, 6p, 3p+k, 3p, 3k, and sweeps. Use these as mix ups to your max damage combos and natural strings.

Once you've gotten good at that, start pouring through her moves and figuring out which ones you don't use, then start playing with them to figure out where they fit in.

****Through out this all, you should be doing your best to mix throws in. The better you get, the more important throwing becomes. p throw. 2p throw. 3k throw. Cut off your natural combos and throw.

 

PK2 is one of the most useful moves but you have to use it wisely. You have to hitcheck it. In NH you have the advantage with Bokutai P. In block is not good too enter bokutai except if opponent try to punish you with 2P. You can counter 2P with bokutai K+G but if your opponent have the knowledge you have problem( anyways is about to guessing). So you have to use it wisely.

 

Round openers:

pp...strings are good vs lower level, aggressive opponents. her p is 11 frames, quicker than most.

You can also try the more risky evade 3g+k versus aggressive opponents. More damage, more risks.

7k+g (or 7k) is a passive way to attack opponents when you are unsure. it beats many aggressive oppenings and retreats you to safety if they don't rush in.

back dash, evade, crouch backdash is the ultimate passive start off. very few moves are quick enough and long range enough to hit you.


Ultimately, how you start will be based on how you like to play, and how you think your opponent likes to play. How aggressive are you, how aggressive are they, and how much risk vs reward are you willing to take on at that moment?

 

I late but here goes.

Coming off of DOA I think that you have to understand that in VF you are not going to have the visual cue's that you get in DOA. In DOA if you land a counter attack you are almost guaranteed to cause the other character to visible stagger or go off balance or put his head in his hands, etc. In VF you don't get that. Your opponent will do the normal recoil from being struck and you get the light flash but that's all you get. With that in mind, you have to be prepared for the reaction BEFORE you attack. You have know that if I land attack "X"on counter (or normal etc.) I will have an advantage of "n" frames and know how to respond accordingly. (By the way "n" could very well be a negative number meaning certain attacks leave you at a disadvantage if they land, even if you land them on counter.) If you ever see a VF character visible go off balance or put his head in his hands, then that is normally a cue to do the biggest combo you have.

One of the lessons we get from that all the combo's referenced in VF are 100% guaranteed. Or at least they were unitl VF:FS introduced a combo counter that would keep running past a situation from which you opponent could do a ground recovery. VFDC we still use the original definition meaning the entire combo is perfectly guaranteed once you meet the first condition (land the first blow at the proper counter level).

This adds up to a faster game. Both have the slow attack, quick attack, block, throw guessing game. In DOA beating a slow attack with a quick attack leads to a stun guessing game which rewards feints and thus slows down the game. By contrast in VF, beating a throw or a slow attack with a quick attack simply gives the winner a headstart and continues the original guessing game.

What you have to do is look for ways to leverage the small windows of advantage into situations where you can create guaranteed combos or situations where it is extremely difficult for your opponent to make a guess that avoids all damage.

 

Read the 1KK thread, read about round openers, learn the universal combos, and think about ways into setting them up, and confusing the opponent into getting launched. Pai can go for big damage from a throw like 46P+G if they stand, or pop them up if they crouch with 3K+G. If you're coming under constant pressure, try a sidestep tap tap to get back in on them. Be very careful about pouncing knees when you knock someone down. Palm (3P+K) is your GTFO out move to clear space from up close. Seriously don't spend too long crouching in this game!

 

Hopefully here is right place to make things clear.

1) sozos told me on ST, PK bokutai is nitaku situation. But it seems a little awkward because P+K is so much stronger compare to K. Also, it's -13 when K on blocked and Pai can reverse mid attack in general. So technically, I don't see there is any reason to take that chance to block that low sweep.

2)same as ST, and I wonder if PP4P strings is better option? +2 on block so P+K can be applied. When BT, 9K can deal with 2P and it's also +4 on block so P+K works too. Or even go bigger with BT K I guess. Plus, BT has 2K low sweep so there are tons of combination to make opponent confused. I wonder if Pai has other ST setup? Or which one is better option?

3)Can someone suggest any good wall combo connect? 3P+K doesn't work as I thought. 9K needs CH and akai told me 466P is good.

Probably more questions I guess.

 

i generaly use Bokutai and most for ST. Agree with your sayings according to your post dennis.
is great for ST, natural combo in ST and the BT has always the advantage. Pai has so many options in BT that make opponent really confused. I would add also BThit throw , is actually good if its connect. So between Bokutai and i wouldnt choose 1 of 2.. I choose both because both are really good and also to confuse your opponent. With pai is good to be unpredictable.

3.About wall combo connect, i copied pasted from wall combo post that i wrote in pai combo thread.
Wall combos:
First of all requires to write down the moves that can make the opponent to connect to wall/stagger and the opportunity of combo. , NH, charge cancel with , last require CH, , , CH, CH, CH. Also when the wall is in your back do and or to stagger the opponent to the wall ( is better option , can be duck ).
So these are moves that you can connect to the wall. Btw i need to retest them again to be 100% sure.

Also for wallsplats.( when wall is in your side ) closed stance if you have the wall in your back, closed stance if you have the wall in your back.
Combos with wallsplats
1. > > > > WS ( i stole it from Gentelmanthief )
2. > BT > > WS

And wall combo opportunity with throws
1. toward to wall > > > WS
2. wall to your side> > >

 

Thanks for the tips of wall setup! It's a lot material and looks great!

The point about ST, I was trying to say I couldn't see any good reason for opponent to block Pai's low sweep, especially when opponent has more life bar. It's only 2P guarantee if you successfully block her low sweep but there are so many mid and stronger attacks she can apply. Talking about sacrifice, I probably would just do standing guard.

 

All of Pai's low sweep are a highly punishable on block so she could be launched out of they spam them too much for obvious reasons. The damage potential they have is very low but why would you not want the free combo that you get if the low sweep gets blocked especially if the Pai player is being careless with them it is -16 on block that is bad for Pai overall.

Bokutai P,K can be made safe and hit checked too so it isn't that bad of an option overall and Bokutai P will stagger crouching foes an even bigger plus for Pai it creates even more chances to blow up the enemy.

 

I was trying to say on ST it's only -13 on block. So unless your character has mid/low move under 13f or low throw, Pai is pretty safe during this situation. Since the damage is so irrelevant, I don't really bitch about it. It is nitaku but too much weight on one side.

 

The damage potentiel is very HIGH near a wall.
Combos with wallsplats
1. >

I feel unconfortable with this. Kingo made it tons of time and I can't make it a reliable thing.
Sometimes I've got tons of time to make the connect. Sometimes not.

I think/guess this is because I do it after knocking down my opponent. Doing an OM to be in the right wall positionning. Sometimes it is a correct position sometimes not ... Maybe...