Understanding Nitaku - on behalf of n00bs

Here I am, asking questions again, allegedly stemming from critical thinking towards the game system rather than plain dumbness (yeah, right...)

Nitaku for the VF impaired:

Hypothesis:
- reaching a position in which you are considered crouched (i.e. you can avoid high throws and presumably attacks) takes 7 frames from standing
- a throw animation takes 12 frames

Thesis:
Create a situation in which you have at least +6 frame advantage. In this situation, your opponent knows that he won't have enough time to crouch under a throw (6 frames of disadv plus 7 frames to crouch take 13 frames altogether whilst the throw takes only 12) and he can also be vulnerable to (mid) attacks. Basically your opponent is forced into some double choice guessing game and you should have a 50% chance of landing some damage.

Assuming this is all correct (and probably it isn't), I have some questions:

1 - in this situation, shouldn't I always go for a throw as an attacker? If the opponent ducks he won't make it in time, if he guards he will be thrown, no?

2 - the throw will never happen as a 0f throw, right? This is because the opponent will always be recovering from an attack, otherwise I wouldn't have a frame advantage, no?

3 - couldn't the player about to be "nitakued" simply go for a guarding throw escape and save his ass anyways (as if they were easy to pull, which are not, at least to me)?

Thanks to the usual veterans who'll answer!

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1) Yes, it's a very good idea to throw. Just that the opponent may choose to attack out of the disadvantaged situation, or go for any low attack that will be able to beat your throw attempt.

2) It will not be a 0 frame throw if you execute the throw with no delay.

3) Yes, that's one of the commonly used defensive technique in this situation outside of abare.

 

at -6 you can crouch dash fuzzy guard to duck under throws and guard mids.

 

so if your opponent uses this method does the situation no longer become nitaku since now it's mid, throw, or FC?

yeah so you need to be >= +7 to apply nitaku

 

Question, on certain lows, do you get in a ducking situation in under 7 frames- such as Jeff's ducking low? I something think that thing causes crouch a lot quicker then 7 frames.

 

What do you mean by FC? Nitaku situation is nitaku situation. How the opponent deals with being in one is their business.

 

Yep, but it is of no consequence. Point is that any attack will be interrupted by opponents fast mid which is one part of nitaku (two-choice)

 

for example:

if you get hit by wolf's low punch on counter hit, you are at -7 frame disadvantage.

IF you choose to stand/block there and i throw, you will get thrown.

IF you choose to attack with a fast mid or low punch and I THROW, you will INTERRUPT my throw.

IF you choose to attack with a fast mid or low punch but i ATTACK with my own fast mid such as KNEE, my knee will hit on counterhit.

+7 advantage or above positions your character for a nitaku or REVERSE nitaku situation. from there it's a true guessing game, which makes VF godlike! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

Not if I do a guarding throw escape

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IF you choose to attack with a fast mid or low punch and I THROW, you will INTERRUPT my throw.
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Is there such a thing? A move that hits in 6 frames? Or is it enough for you to be in the execution frames of the move not to be thrown? Anyhow, I wouldn't do that, it would be attacking at a disadvantage.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IF you choose to attack with a fast mid or low punch but i ATTACK with my own fast mid such as KNEE, my knee will hit on counterhit.</div></div>
Again, abare, which I wouldn't do.

I might had misinterpreted nitaku as "setting up an advantageous situation", but the cure to the whole thing seems to be a guarding throw escape, no?
Any side effects to that?

 

If you input the wrong one you will get thrown.

And abare is not always a bad thing. It´s a very valid technique if you know what you are doing. If you know your opponent always or usually throws in certain situations you can simply abare yourself out of your disadvantage. you would use fast moves and preferably ones that don´t cause a clash.

you can also use moves with evase qualities to abare yourself out of your disadvantage.

 

But that's not the point. What I was trying got say is that there is not such things as:

"Hey, if you try to guard against my mid attack and I throw you, you are phucked. If you you try to avoid the throw by entering a throw escape and I go for a mid, you'll be in a throw animation and you will get my mid"

You don't have to decide between defending from a throw or defending from a mid. You can do both. That's why I was wondering what is the point of the whole nitaku thing...

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, anyone. But in this case you wouldn't have a zero frame through, so a move under 12 frames would interrupt the throw attempt in this situation right?

 

correct, if the opponent decides to interrupt my throw, it will be a 12 frame throw. if the opp decides to block/guard, it will be 0 frame.

franz, you are reading WAY too much into this nitaku thing. nitaku simply means "2 choices." EITHER BLOCK OR ATTACK! OR ATTACK OR THROW! even if you INPUT throw escapes and successfully break my throw, it is STILL a nitaku situation! if you need me to demonstrate it to you online, find me.

and there IS no such thing as "GUARDING THROW ESCAPE." if you stand still and input throw escapes, nothing is gonna stop your throw animation from coming out...even guard. but yes, you CAN input throw escapes, but i guarantee you that my mid will hit you . EVADING throw escape(s) guard, however, is a different story.

 

I think you are 100% right about me thinking it was some sort of situation in which you have a major advantage. I just thought it was something like okizeme, a specific situation that, if exploited correctly, can really lead you to victory. I remember people writing stuff like "ah, I'm learning the power of nitaku" or stuff like that and I thought to myself "wah, I gotta learn that" but then I tried to figure it out and all my qiestions came out.
Thanks for offering to explain that practically, it'd be a pleasure but I have no Xbox Live for now.

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and there IS no such thing as "GUARDING THROW ESCAPE." if you stand still and input throw escapes, nothing is gonna stop your throw animation from coming out...even guard. but yes, you CAN input throw escapes, but i guarantee you that my mid will hit you . EVADING throw escape(s) guard, however, is a different story. </div></div>

no, wait, the system guide reads:

Throw Escape with Guard (TEG)

Throw Escape Guard and Evade Throw Escape Guard are a technique used to resume blocking as fast as possible while entering throw escapes allowing you to guard against both strikes and throws. It is done by holding down the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif button that was part of the last throw escape. TEG will also save you from a throw coming out accidentally and eating a Counter hit or Clash (see below).

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shocked.gif

 

ok ok ok, you are correct on this...

BUT!

because of 0 frame throw, it is very difficult to input multiple throw escapes. so if you guess properly, kudos to you. THROW ESCAPE GUARD is usually APPLIED AFTER you're attempted attack has been blocked. this is usually after a disadvantage of -12 or so, because THROWS NOR PUNCH(depending on the disadvantage) canNOT be avoided. EVADING THROW ESCAPE GUARD is the same but AFTER an attempted evade. ETEG is usually applied at disadvantages between -7 to -11.

also, YES NITAKU IS DEFINATELY A TACTIC THAT CAN EASILY TURN THE TIDES! nitaku is actually more important than what people think. believe me on this...

nitaku is wolf's bestfriend /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

it's such a simple concept yet terribly hard to understand at the same time. Much like F=ma or e=mc^2

also hard to utlize depending on your character. All of Eileen's Nitaku come from CH which can be a pain. Now I have to figure out how to frame trap my opponent into giving me CH's. The new quest of mine.

That and throw escapes

 

There is this thing called 'advanced techniques'.... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif Nitaku is merely the term for the situation where you cant defend from both at the same time using 'normal' means. Throw-escape guard is one way of dealing with the situation, but it is not foolproof.

Throw clash was introduced to reduce people using abare too much and instead defend 'properly' like TEG etc.

Isnt this supposed to be a beginner thread? Understanding the concept of nitaku is very important for a beginner, all advanced defensive techniques are based on beating it, and dealing with advanced defensive techniques like fuzzy guard and TEG is 'the next level' etc...

And not just defensively, a beginner should understand how to apply nitaku to opponent offensively and make then defend...etc etc. One thing at a time /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

Throw-escape guard is definitely applicable from -7 to -11, and has some advantages over evade-throw-escape guard (defend circular moves).

As for the original topic questions, I'm really not trying to be a jerk, but does this system guide in the wiki not explain this adequately? If not, what needs to be clarified in it?

 

To stay on topic, Ill answer

Unless opponent always attacks out of disadvantage causing throwclash, in which case you should use a midhitting launcher and combo him. Picking an option shouldnt be a random thing..Watch what opponent has a tendency to do and react accordingly.

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3 - couldn't the player about to be "nitakued" simply go for a guarding throw escape and save his ass anyways (as if they were easy to pull, which are not, at least to me)?
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Yes he can go for it. TEG can also be beaten with a variety of ways, like using a throw that defender didnt input escape for, or delayed throw (which will throw him after throwescape has expired).

 

Guys, I love you all. I really mean it.

Chef Trash and Manjimaru, just thank you a lot. It is more clear now. Which means I might need further help tomorrow morning. Feel free to consider me hopeless at any time, but until then, thanks.

KoD, no offence taken at all but no, neither parts of the system guide mention nitaku. It is only described in the glossary (apologies if you consider that to be a part of the system guide) as:
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Nitaku

In Japanese it means two-choice. It describes a situation where you have enough advantage (in frames) to force your opponent to choose between defending a mid attack or avoiding a throw. By simply holding Guard to defend the mid will make you vulnerable against the throw. In VF, there is no one simple technique that will successfully defend against both, so forcing a nitaku situation on your opponent is an effective way to attack.
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to me, this seems not to mention:

1 - that the frame advantage must to be such that it is impossible for the disadvantaged player to duck the throw

and

2 - what happens if the disadvantaged player believes the attacker will go for a throw and will act subsequently (and it the case, would it be an attack to break the 12f throw or simply a throw escape?) and what will happen to him if he guessed wrong (which should be "he gets the mid in his teeth", right?)

Also, the first part of the last sentence is prolly what it made me think of nitaku as a very advantageous situation for the attacker and mentioning guarding throw escape might clarify on that.

The system guide and all of the resources of the website are great and we n00bs will never be grateful enough to the contributors. However, it seems that at times things were written by veterans for other veterans o other intermediate players. I've been reading the system guide extensively as of late and I'm making notes of things that I believe are not 100% clear. Let me know if and when I can send them so you guys can improve the material further (or shall I get my own Wiki account?).

I believe that the saying "make it idiot proof and they'll make a better idiot" s true and that I am the "better idiot".

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Thanks again

Æ’ranz