Using slide

So I've been trying to use the Slide more in my game, in particular since some Japanese players seem to be able to do very very well on wakeup in particular with it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYJmeyS_IgY

and I think it's an underutilized part of Sarah's game right now (didn't see it hardly at all on the Evo stream, for example). I don't think it's nearly as vital to her play as good Flamingo, but it's got good, unique options and some of the stuff from back slide is potentially very scary stuff.

So there are really three scenarios for entering Slide:

1) String from advantage (kp6 or 6kp6 on hit, 6pp6, Slide pp6 or 6p+kp6 on counter hit)
2) String from disadvantage (any entry on block, ppp6, 6pp6, 6p+kp6 on hit)
3) Naked (just 6p+k+g)

As a quick note, in general 2p will always interrupt a slide attempt; the stance has no way to deal with 2p in general, so be aware of that. I think Slide k+g may jump 2p but won't hit the user, so you end up in the odd backturned situation. i need to test this out and see if there's any use for this move at all.

Discussing the entry situations in turn:

1) In this case, you have sufficient advantage that Slide p interrupts any 12 frame retaliation (excepting 2p). So you have that going for you. It makes an interesting mixup against players that know about this situation; you can Slide or you can throw up an 8k/8k+g or other low crush if you anticipate the 2p. Additionally, the 4 backslide should sabaki any high or mid punch/elbow. I don't think being in on counterhit improves your situation much, excepting that Slide p+k should be safe (and nasty on counterhit). Overall, then, you can imagine the mixup to be between slide p/p+k and slide 2k/2kk, possibly with the occasional backslide.

2) At this point it's mainly a mindfuck, but I need to determine if entering on hit on 6pp6 might enable 6p to be able to interrupt a 13 or 14 frame retaliation; you're only at -1 so it's possible. In general, though, you basically are hoping for the opponent to a) freeze up so you can Slide 2k/2kk mixup or b) try to backslide sabaki and hope he sticks out a high/mid p, which you should be able to sabaki even at the -8 from ppp6 in my testing. Generally not recommended unless you are pretty sure you can expect a block/evade.

3) From mid range, I don't think this is a bad option at all. A lot of Sarahs (myself included) like to stick out 66k and I think if your opponent worries about that you have the opportunity to stick out Slide k at about the same range. Similarly, slide 2kk is comparably quick to 4k+g and arguably looks a bit similar, so you have that as a possible mixup at that range. Slide 2k is of course a low full circular, and if they respect Slide k or you space properly Slide p is a good variation on entering with just a standard p, though the frames are worse. You can also cancel into the back slide to open up those moves. The Slide 2k/2kk mixup looks to be fairly strong on wakeup as well.

Some per-move analysis:

Slide p: 12 frame high, not as good as p on hit or block (-2/+1). The canned P afterwards is a mid that's -6/-1 on block/hit. Built-in throw-mid mixup though. On hit you could conceivably buffer 44p for the turnaround and it should beat 12 frame retaliation. The flipkick k is not a natural combo on normal hit at least, but does open a (risky) throw/mid mixup.

Slide k: 23 frame mid kick, a slower, harder hitting 66k. Does 30 damage, slightly (-6 vs. -8) safer on block (though with pushback, basically safe), and same frames on hit.

Slide 2k: 21 frame full circular low. Screwed on block (-18), but knockdown on hit. Mixup with 2kk.

Slide 2kk: The axe kick, 19 frames, 20 damage, and a p+g hit throw on hit or block for 40 damage. I suspect this is the star of the show from Slide; if you can use 4k+g, you can probably sub this in for highly comparable damage to a 4k+g combo or damage even on block.

Slide p+k: A half circular high, 16 frames, safe on block and crazy frames (+7/+12) on hit and counter hit. I think this is also worth throwing out if they start to respect the Slide k or 2kk, especially with the half circular ability. Haven't used it extensively but looks like it would be a good choice/mixup where you'd use 4p.

Slide k+g: Um, an ass attack. Mysteriously high. Only redeeming feature seems to be sailing over lows (though not hitting them) and jumping over downed opponents. If you can figure out what the fuck to do with this, please let me know.

Back slide Sabaki: The backslide sabakis high and mid punches and elbows, and basically guarantees any of the backslide followups (at least backslide P, which is really all you need).

Back slide p: 15 frame high, -2 on block, stupid good frames on hit (+12/+17). Probably worth throwing out every so often.

Back slide k: 18 frame knee attack, -6 on block, fast crumple on hit. Haven't got great combos off this one yet.

Back slide 2k: 21 frame half-circular low, the rare low that's actually advantaged on hit (+3). Might be useful.

Back slide p+k: 21 frames, linear, -5 on block, but a slow crumple on hit. Very damaging combo starter, but again haven't played with it much. Some Japanese videos have very nasty wall combos starting with this, need to find links.

Back slide k+g: Full circular kick. Screwed on block. Guess if you expect the evade... may also give you options to throw from a back slide since they have to respect this.

So that's what I've got so far. Am still experimenting, so any other thoughts are definitely appreciated. Post 'em, please!

 

Slide K+G: Don't scoff at this move. It is slow and can be stepped in either direction. However, it's +4 on block and goes into Sarah's BT game which is pretty damn good.

On block:

BT P and K beats mostly everything standing because BT P is 10 frames and K is 11. And you're already at +4 so essentially you're dealing with a 6 frame jab and a 7 frame K BT P leads to the entire normal stance P series
BT K wall splats (can get big damage)

BT K+G beats all jabs and goes into FL. On hit, this is one of my favorite times to go into SS as it's +6 on CH and +3 on hit. I'ts half circular and -2 on block so plan accordingly.

BT 2K TCs and sweeps full circular. Dodges a lot of attacks and knocks down. -16 on block (prepare to be launched)

BT P+K Basically 2P+K from her normal stance. It's i16 but if it's after Slide K+G, it's basically an 12 frame hit confirmable launcher. It also is the only move out BT that beats 2P if they block Slide K+G

BT 2P is i13. You do the math.

BT 1K i18. This move is good if you preceed it with 44P because it takes a tiny step back and enables you to outdistance an opposing 2P and kick them in the face. But for some reason, this doesn't work that way after Slide K+G. I still get hit with an opponents 2P.

BT 4K The star of Sarah's BT moves. Only half circular. I16 but after Slide K+G, it's basically i12. It doesn't beat jabs, it's high so it doesn't hit 2P but it TJs. The big thing about it, is it stuns them on hit forever and can lead to some pretty nasty damage.

BT 4K, 4K+G, 1K, 4K, FL8K does 101 damage and can be landed on everybody. I'll let someone else find the killer wall stuff.

BT 7K 9K but with her backturned, which basically flips you away from nearly all harm.

BT P+K+G Flips you behind opponent. I have no idea why anyone would want to escape this way.

Also, slide K+G can force ring out from a few steps away on block.


On hit:

Does 30 damage and can ring out

 

I've been super busy lately and haven't been able to test some stuff until tonight. Here's some of my findings just messing around with slide in practical use.

I found it very useful in wake up games. Doing the slide then the back slide, I want to test it on wake up kicks more. I think you can evade the rising kicks with it. From there it should be an easy punish. In my testing I wouldn't do the K or the K+P out of the back slide on wake up, both are really negative on block. However the K can lead to an easy combo if it hits. P, 2K and P+K are decent moves out of the back slide. The P and 2K can keep them honest, while the P+K can lead to another easy combo. While the 2K is bad on block I see it as a keep them honest move. Can condition them to block on wake up and sneak that in there once in a while.

Combine this with other stuff in the wake up game and it adds another element to Sarah's game. And I think makes her very dangerous since she has quite a bit of stuff in the wake up game.

The raw Slide I have yet to really try outside of wake up. I noticed the K+G that Holy talked about, that could be really good. My problem with the Slide right now is it is pretty obvious. If you can mask it, you can really mess with your opponent. It's an interesting aspect to her game, there is a lot to delve into. I think there is a solid place for it in her game.

 

I personally don't think slide has too much value online atm, mainly because of endless attack spammers. It can be good on wake up as a confusion and frustration tactic, like FS>2K to put them back down. It is useful against people with skill or that are trying to play a defensive game, It's useful in juggles and other areas though.

 

Well, shit, the BT stuff is nifty to have compiled on its own. I've seen more people using BT 4k, but I had no idea you could get that kind of damage, holy shit. Also didn't know bt k+g was half circular, that ups it in my estimation, though being at disadvantage in flamingo on block is not so fun. If nothing else, that's more reasons to use 33p and 33k.

I'm still not sold on Slide k+g outside of a very rare Slide from range or maybe an attempt to cross up after a knockdown if they expect the Slide 2k/2kk mixup. While I am happy to get to +4 it doesn't beat anything up to about 20 frames in my testing even from advantage after 6kp6 (not even 2p, which I had hoped it would), so if they do anything other than block high you may be screwed. I don't know if you're too bad off if they evade though, I'll have to play with that.

On the upside, it does look like you should be able to beat 14 frame attacks on hit from 6pp6, so that's nice. You still eat p and 2p but it's not as bad as i'd thought.

 

Really, nothing worth doing is worth doing online half the time. I had much rage against the PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP Brad show till I figured out you just have to mash back harder against them for the most part. It's frustrating as fuck, especially when things that should work don't. An unpunishable 2p isn't quite as rage inducing as unpunishable fierce shoryukens were in ssf4, but it does kind of ruin the game.

 

You just need to play Brad more and wait for his flurries to stop, then punish. You can duck when he's throwing mindless highs and 2P him out of it. You can also step/evade out of most of his generic P spam as well. Run brad through command training with the frame data on and you wont have that many problems with unskilled mashers

 

Most times online advanced tactics are not worth using because the level of most players is very very low.

I do have more findings for the backslide on wake up. The back slide will evade rising attacks from what I've seen. If you do an attack you'll get hit out of it, maybe a real early 2k might beat out a rising attack. However evading the rising attack does open them up for punishment. I think it's something that could be used against low level players who do a rising attack often.

As for Brad mashers, blocking works well. Once they end the string, they're dead. Also sidestepping works well, they really are not that hard to deal with. I haven't seen an actual Brad player yet, everyone mashes with him. It's easy to press P multiple times, not much to think about.

 

Good lord this is the truth.

The Brad players who seem to can't find any other button on their pad but P are annoying as all fuck. But, they are easy to beat. It's just so unsatisfying to constantly side-step/punish. I kind of turn my brain off against them. Then suddenly I'm facing a freakin' GodSlayer ranked opponent in my next match...ugh...

As for the slide steps, so far the only use I'm getting out of it is to bait my opponent into doing something punishable. Her back step P+K is deadly. But she seems completely vulnerable the entire time she's moving. Am I missing something?

 

No she's vulnerable, they needed to give her those moves without the step. I played the worst LeiFei spammer yesterday that would only attack and I got so tired of side stepping/punish that I just picked random characters and mashed back, lmao. Then he complained when I called him a mindless spammer, then proceeds to lose to my anti spam Aoi smh...

There are some really un fun matches out there to be had, ugh.

 

So I'm not sure actually on Back Slide how deep into the animation the sabaki will come out. I know it's certainly active at the beginning but past that I don't know when she'll stop being able to parry. If you sabaki you should have between +14-18 depending and at least a guaranteed Back Slide p to pk/3pk or guaranteed throw.

For what it's worth, I think the trick to naked Slides are to use them from range and to fire off whatever move right away; if you're going to use 2k/2kk you should be right about where you can use 4k+g, for example, and there's no reason not to use it right away. One thing to consider on the Back Slide though is that the moves will come out for at least several frames after she's stopped moving, so you may be able to wait longer to throw a Back Slide P+K then you think you can.

As far as Brad spam is concerned, it's only really frustrating when the lag is bad. I know for pretty certain you're not supposed to be able to 2p into ppp and beat my elbow on block. My reflexes aren't that bad. It's those cases where you just have to give up what you know and MASH MOAR for victoly!!11!!1one1

 

so this:

http://virtuafighter.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/333726

is very interesting. It implies that mixing up Slide 2k/2kk may be a very good trick on wakeup after a knockdown that gives you this side turned on ground situation such as 3kk combo enders. You may even just be able to throw out 2kk if they quick rise and get a chance at the hit throw no questions asked if it's timed right. May also be a use for Slide k+g; if they quick rise, 2kk, if they don't, k+g and switch sides with them, could theoretically evade rising attacks I think.

 

Well, best time for Slide attacks for me are:

Wake up. But not on every wakeup. I like doing it after ending a combo ending in 7K if they show they're gonna tech roll to avoid any hits afterwards. Ending a combo with 7K flips the opponent over if it's done with the opponent high enough. Go with Slide as soon as you land and do Slide 2K and it'll sweep them right back down before they can do anything if they don't block low. If you do Slide K+G when they get up and block it, they'll get up but block it sideturned. This then turns the advantage from a blocked Slide K+G from +4 to +14.

EDIT* This doesn't happen after every combo that flips. But one I can consistenly get this to happen with is 1K, KP, Slide PPK. After that combo, do Slide K+G, if they tech roll and block it standing, you get the +14. I haven't been able to create this with 2P+K, 1K+GK, 7K

EDIT* part 2 When I do FL 6K, KP, Slide PPK, Slide K+G, when the opponent blocks it, it's now +15. Maybe instead of ending combos with 7K/8K, it's the ones that end with Slide PPK? Also, I wonder why the advantage goes up by a frame.

EDIT* part 3. Sorry. But I never messed with the frames before doing this in-game. I just figured I was at frame advantage so I never tested it in training. Anyway, it seems that it matters which way they tech roll. If they tech roll to the foreground and block standing, you get their side, and it's +14/+15. If they tech roll to the background, you get +8.

After 66K hits. This move is really fast and shocking. It pushes the opponent back really far if you're both playing the range game. After 66K hits, I'll do another right after it so they won't attack right after. Once they start blocking or stepping after 66K hits, start smiling because that's when you know you got them. Then you can do Slide 2K/2KK.

 

That's actually pretty powerful that you get sideturned on k+g off techroll, but don't you have to worry they'll just duck it? Also, I think to get the situation you're talking about you need to hit the flipkick high enough to get the ass flop animation and not just a hard knockdown. I'd check the foot position when you start the combo and see if that changes how the frame advantage on techroll changes as well. There's not too many VF situations that are always relative to foreground/background, so I suspect this is an open/closed stance phenomenon. Interesting in any case. Finally, why wouldn't you go for Slide 2kk over 2k? Timed properly, they literally cannot evade from the techroll, so either they block low and eat the hit and hit throw or they block high and eat the hit throw. And if anything you want to encourage high blocking if you intend to use Slide k+g at all.

Also, I wonder if that extra frame advantage applies from the 3kk enders? I'll try to test that out too. I'm starting to go to 1k kp6 Slide p 3kk for most everybody under Wolf/Jeffery for the 76 damage and the advantaged setup for wakeup games and if this consistently hits for. If you're at +14 that's basically a guaranteed Flamingo entry (can you turn and throw in 14 frames?), and at +8 you should still beat whatever if they press a button.

I will investigate off 66k more. Same things should work off Slide k too or +4 situations in general, so if I can reliably land Slide P there that might open up a lot of options. Also, I need to make sure but I think you should be able to at least beat 14 frame attacks from Slide pp6 on regular hit, I need to check but would definitely improve the pressure situation from there in combination with 33p or 8k. I really think there could be an unexploited possibility in Slide pp since you have the fast but risky flipkick to keep them from sticking too much out even on block.

 

Well, yeah, they can definitely just duck and punish the Slide K+G. The situation I put up with the techroll isn't foot dependent, but it is weight dependent, probably because of how high you need to float them for the Slide PPK to hit, tech roll the flip, then Slide K+G.

I tested the BT+14 turn grab vs P and 2P but they interrupt it. Although I don't really know a fast way to go from BT into grab other than G~P+G. How many frames does it take to turn around?

Slide K+G really is just something to make an opponent think about and if they're anywhere near the end of a stage, you pretty much guaranteed to push them out.

 

So have people been able to effectively incorporate this into there game yet? I just started to get good adding it into my Sarah game. It is quite effective and you can get some really easy damage, or some moderately difficult but higher damage combos from it. I would like to hear what Sarah players current experiences are with Slide now, as we've all had more time with her. I know one good damaging combo I learned last night from the J players (only tested on lightweights), if anyone (only tested on lightweights). Anyone have any they wanna share?

 

Any CH against anyone but Taka. Haven't tested on Wolf and Jeff

Combo covers nice distance and almost always guaranteed wall combo followup (or ring out) so long as you are in the middle of the ring. You can then go into whatever.

-> +,, -> ,,

Maybe not the most damaging initially, but taking someone to the wall or ring side is a nice position thing

 

Is that out of Slide or is that just a combo off of 1K launcher?

 

Combo off of but I like using slide to get max distance carry on my combos

Another thing is FS ~ -> +, -> FL if they don't tech when the get knocked down

If you are speaking about the moves from FS, I think the only real combo combos you can get are from backslide (BS) to my knowledge.

 

Yeah I was referring to the backslide combos (there are some good ones), thanks for that 2K combo, for people that don't tech roll i'll be using it