beat knuckle kufuffle

Hi just wondering why is the beat knuckle always described as such a wonderfull jacky tool? ,the block stun sucks and yes I know you can tack on a back knuckle either right after of just before his knuckle slips off their guard but can't they throw you after your time to delay has ended?.Is this just good from far away or something?, good as an interupt?.I guess I'm just to hesitent to do a move that puts you in throw range, to be honest I'm very scared of using Akira dashing elbow because when blocked you are left right next to the opponent for throw, at least with normal elbow they have to dash forward first. ( :

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by {Doomboy} on 9/1/00 02:13 AM.</FONT></P>

 

welp..it's fairly fast in execution time and has the potential for good damage if it floats. that right there is reason enough to at least consider using it.
and akira's DE isn't throw counterable at all...it's his SDE (f,f,f+P) that's counterable.

 

dashing elbow

I wasn't under the impression that it was throw counterable just that it left you very close to the opponent giving you no time to react,no need to dash forward for a throw.( :
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by {Doomboy} on 9/1/00 06:15 AM.</FONT></P>

 

Re: dashing elbow

okay but listen to what Rich is telling you.

If your DE is blocked you are in good health
because unlike the SDE it is uncounterable; if
it staggers you are fine and if it hits you are
okay.

why don't you want to use this move again? Quite
honestly if you don't want to be close to your
opponent how do you expect to hit them? To win?

To quote Myke quoting Ms. Hill: How you gonna win
if you aint right within?

GE
-the DE explanation was an oversimplification but the
point is valid; it's a safe move. The only way you're
going to get thrown after using it is if you are
always E'ing after it or you just stop and wait for
your opponent to have a turn; or you whiff.

 

Re: dashing elbow

I don't mind fighting a close fight but I prefer not to be constantly in throw range especially against wolf or the other heavies.After DE initiative is no longer yours right? so it is perfecly logical to block correct?.All I am saying is that most elbows when blocked don't leave you in throw range immediatly after.I was hoping the smily face at the end of the last post would over ride any negative comments and I'm sorry if it sounded like I was critisizing Rich so just in case you missed the last one ( : ( : ( :

 

Re: dashing elbow

After a blocked DE, the field is even. No one has an advantage over the other. The Akira player will normally be be in great shape at this point, because Akira is an *EXCELLENT* close fighter. DE is crazy fast, and having one buffered off an opponent blocking the previous insures that any throw attempt is met with an mC, at least. And of the big throwing characters, I've always thought of Wolf, Akira and Kage as the absolute nightmares. (note no Jeff or Taka) All 3 of these characters have near half life throws that range from unbelievably simple to only moderately trying. Point is, all of them have great RO ability too with their throws. They're beasts.

The other assumption isn't always true either (completely) about regular elbows. A good point is Akira's. While his DE isn't throw counterable, his regular elbow is. You may recover outside of regular throw range, but you recover so slowly, the opponent can dash forward and throw you before you recover. Some characters don't have this problem (stupid Jacky and Kage ), but don't always hold something universally true because it's generally true.

 

Re: dashing elbow

After DE initiative is no longer yours right? so it is perfecly logical to block correct?.

not at all. Read Nutlog's response for why. the possibility
that you might be criticising Rich was never my concern (nor
did it even come to mind); criticise away, I have total faith in
Rich to defend himself. What was on my mind was that you failed
to "get" the main point of Rich's post. That the DE wasn't
counterable and therefore you shouldn't worry about being in
throwing distance. Rich actually said "throw counterable"
which might have been the problem with your interpretation
of his text.

that said...look at my post again. I mentioned all the reasons
why DE was a good safe move blocked, stagger or hit. You're
only in a bad spot if you whiff. Again, slight oversimplification
since the success of everything you do after a blocked DE is
dependent on how well you know your opponent and his reactions.

And that's all I was saying,

GE
-I didn't miss the smiley faces although truthfully I thought
at first they were frowns since they face in the opposite
direction that I'm used to.

 

Re: dashing elbow

>No one has an advantage over the other.

wrong. akira is a disadvantage. if we want to get all technical, his opponent recovers 4-7 frames faster than him.
regardless of exact figures there are so few moves where the aggressor and defender recover on neutral terms, and akira's DE is NOT one of them. akira is "safe" but he will have his work cut out for him against any half decent player.

>The Akira player will normally be be in great shape at this point

no, akira is not "in great shape" after a blocked DE. (!!!!!)

also, like akira, lion, sarah, taka and jeff have "regular" elbows that are throw counterable.

 

Re: dashing elbow

I recall this being stressed at NYG2... Isn't the opponent in the advantage (frame-wise) if they do get hit by Akira's DE? Maybe I misunderstood, but I recall this being said... that if Akira hits the opponent (I assume standing and not staggering) with the DE, the opponent has the initiative. Again, I probably misunderstood...

-Chanchai

 

Re: dashing elbow

yope...akira is at a disadvantage if his DE hits normally...

<font color=red>ORA! ORA! ORA!</font color=red>

<font color=white>adam</font color=white><font color=red>YUKI</font color=red>

 

Re: dashing elbow

Does the dashing elbow stagger any longer than your regular garden variety elbow?.Oh yeah and a smily face is still smiling if it's facing this way ( : the arc just has to go towards the eyes yes? here's one for you GE : ).I guess this post was bound to cause a kufuffle hehe no hard feelings right GE?.

 

speaking of DE.........

The other day I was playing Pai and glitched through DE with my ssk anybody else ever experienced this?

 

Re: dashing elbow

never any hard feelings...at all.

a smile is still a smile unless I interpret it
incorrectly. Then it is a frown. Or nonsensical.

GE

 

Re: dashing elbow

After a blocked DE, the field is even. No one has an advantage over the other.

As Mr.Bungle has already said, this just is not true.

DE is crazy fast, and having one buffered off an opponent blocking the previous insures that any throw attempt is met with an mC

No, hitting someone of throw attempt only yields Normal hit. That's also why Hiro or other players will place a throw on seemindly random basis. Take a few DE normal hit, but ONE GS still has higher payoff.

the opponent can dash forward and throw you before you recover. Some characters don't have this problem (stupid Jacky and Kage ),

Dashing-in > Throw is possible with whiffed Jacky/Kage's elbows, though not to the extent of Akira's whiffed elbow. Of course things are tricky for Jacky as he has canned spinkick after the elbow.

 

Re: dashing elbow

>hitting someone of throw attempt only yields Normal hit.

as far as damage goes, aye. but, i'm almost positive that you'll float higher if you get whacked out of a throw attempt by a knee or any similar floating move. and i am positive that the sound of the move hitting you out of a throw attempt is a deeper, louder noise (like MC). unlikely the noise difference would be there if it didn't mean anything.

and elbows..we forgot one! fuck! how could we! jacky's PPf+P is counterable.

--
"A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Mr. Bungle on 9/2/00 01:46 AM.</FONT></P>

 

It may be late, but here is my take on the original subject.

Beatknuckle > (delayed) Back-knuckle is a MUST and the least you can do to minimize the risk.
Throwing BETWEEN two knuckles is not possible. Ducking the second back-fist and throw, however, is very viable option. Jacky in that situation can do the 3rd low-sweep if the opponent is obviously going for the throw.

Some attacks, such as Wolf's low-K, will interrupt 2nd back-fist or 3rd low-sweep no matter what, so the move is still not entirely safe.

Beat-knuckle > Back-fist sequence is useful because:

1) Fast
2) Good priority
3) Catches dodge to one direction
4) Combo potential in certain foot stance

Followings are the typical situations to do the move:

1) Mid-distance
(counting on fast execution and good priority of the move; but not too recommended especially against Akira)

2) Guaranteed counter-attack
(eg. after blocking another Jacky's elbow-spinkick. In open stance, beat-knuckle > back-fist + combo yields the maximum guaranteed damage)

3) When you anticipate your opponent's throw

3) is perhaps the most neglected use of beat-knuckle > backfist. It can be used just in the same way as Akira uses his SPoD when anticipating the incoming throw. Staggered > (recover) > P+K.... is very effective.

Against Hiro's Wolf, there are many situations where my Jacky's elbow is blocked. For a first few times, I repeat E-Guard-TE to signal Hiro that I am dodging. Then the 3rd time when my elbow is blocked, my P+K caught Wolf's throw attempt and yielded good damage with a combo. Of course everything is up for grab from 4th time on....

Oh...you also have to get in the habit of watching the foot stance when using beat-knucke. Basically only use the move in open stance because of the combo potential (yes...familiar P+K > P > u/b+K which is easy and yields maximum damage in most situations).