Capcom VS SNK 2

Discussion in 'General' started by ice-9, Sep 23, 2001.

  1. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Hey all, this game arrived in my mail box a few days ago (DC version). I've played it before in the arcades, but haven't really played it into any depth until only recently.

    Anyway, I thought I'd give prospective players my impressions.

    GRAPHICS

    So-so. The stages aren't too plentiful at default, although there could be more hidden away. What there is available from the start are decent, but some stages are definitely better than others. I really like the lantern stage (Haohmaru and Honda one) but dislike the ice stage; the latter is just too cheap looking.

    The characters animate beautifully, again, some better than others. Characters still suffer a slightly pixelated look and some will complain about that, but it really doesn't bother me all that much.

    I'd give the graphics a 3/5, adequate but nothing special.

    SOUND

    Pretty good, there are some nice tunes in there. Voices and BGM are clear. Etc. etc., like anyone really cares about the music.

    I'd give it another 3/5.

    GAMEPLAY

    Ahh, the only section we really care about.

    Lessee...

    When I first tried it out at E3 (test version) and at the arcade, I was really excited. I mean, there was a few threads back about convergence--boy, this game is it when it comes to 2D. It amalgamates much from both Capcom and SNK worlds, and this is most obvious in the groove system.

    There are six grooves:

    C -> This is the standard Capcom groove in the first CVS
    A -> Basically your Alpha system, with Alpha combos and air blocking
    P -> Parries SFIII style; this groove also has short jumps
    S -> Similar to SNK groove in the first CVS but instead of rolling you get KOF95 introduced dodges, with the dodge attacks; basically the KOF95 system
    N -> Basically the KOF98 system
    K -> Mark of the Wolves system with Just Defending

    Basically, there's a groove for everyone. I personally favor P, S and N. P because of my familiarity with SFIII, S because I loved KOF95 but N is my main groove because it has two of my favorite features: short jumps and rolls. I've only played Garou once and have no idea what Just Defending really is. Anyone want to clue me in?

    So I was pretty excited because CVS2 really seemed to address the problems CVS1 had. Now characters are not bound to a predetermined ratio (I like to pick all bosses, heh heh); you have freedom to choose which groove you like; and most important of all, characters no longer feel "butchered." I.e. Capcom characters feel familiar now with 6 buttons and SNK characters get many of their moves back. There is no EX version of characters and most characters are a combination of EX and original from CVS1.

    As for the SNK characters...man, with the 2 extra attack buttons, some characters have become poking monsters. Now it's easier to 2-in-1 as Capcom gave many characters a cancelable low MK (for example, Geese, Terry, etc.).

    I must say that CVS2 really shows how boring the Capcom universe is compared to SNK. I find myself picking SNK characters much more than Capcom characters, and the Capcom characters all seem to be so shallow. Freak, Guile still has the two same moves as he does in SF2 (not that he needs anything else, but still).

    And Capcom cheated a little bit too. C'mon, rolling is a KOF feature, but Capcom's inclusion of it into both C and A grooves (while on the SNK side only N groove has it) makes it seem like its primarily a Capcom thing. What does Capcom really contribute here? Air blocking? Alpha combos? Really, the only notable system addition are parries, and even then, SNK was sort of there already with guard canceling.

    Anyway, these are just minor quibbles neither here nor there to the gameplay. My biggest gripe with the gameplay is that things seem so jumbled up with the different grooves; you just know that there is practically no balance in the game, not that the designers tried to make it balanced given all the grooves and different characters from different games (I mean, Haohmaru for goodness sake!). Some characters, for example, just don't go well with certain grooves. Geese and P groove is a great example. The utility of parrying is a lot less with Geese's reversals...practically the only reason I play the fella.

    Then again, I don't really mind I guess. I never saw CVS as a "serious" game...yes, definitely better than the likes of MVC, but one that I play more fun than to win. I'm guessing this is the purpose of the game, a game for Capcom and SNK fans to have fun with the melting pot of different games.

    Truthfully, I think SNK has more to gain from the project. When Capcom players finally see the light and try out the SNK characters, they will realize how fun to play they are. And when they think about it carefully, they'll realize that a lot of the exciting game system (the KOF-style dashing, the rolling/dodging, short hops, big jumps, etc.) features are mostly from SNK. I haven't played good competition yet, but so far, the game is feeling more SNK in terms of speed and style of gameplay than Capcom.

    So the gameplay is fun, but because there is no cohesive design focus to this game, you know there'll be balance issues. I give the gameplay 4.5/5.

    MISCELLANEOUS

    There are other options but I haven't tried them much. Seems pretty standard. The menus are rather annoying though. 4/5. I'll just assume it's up to snuff.

    P.S.

    Stuff maybe someone can help me on:

    - So what's Just Defending again?

    - What's the timing to break Rock's 360 degree throw (with the 3Ps)? It seems awfully difficult for me to time it right and combo with the super. Rock's an awesome character...a mix between Geese and Terry, two among my favorite characters.

    - The first time I played in the arcade, I got challenged by Vega (M. Bison) right before my final stage. After I beat my final stage, I got challenged by an incredibly overpowered Akuma....I mean, damn, this Akuma was incredible (CPU, not human). It just totally destroyed me; I think one DP took off 1/3 of my life, or something insane like that. Anyway, I've never been able to get that again after playing my CVS2 DC many times through (8 stars and I usually don't lose). I've had Vega challenge me once again but that's it. Anyone know how to get this Akuma back? I'm ready for revenge!
     
  2. jackybrothas

    jackybrothas Well-Known Member

    nice review. i've seen it but never got the chance to play it.(and thats only cuz they removed it after a few days for some strange reason.. oh well)
     
  3. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    one thing I found with the P groove
    the parry timing is kinda similar to 3S...but yet I've missed parries where in 3S..I would have had a 100% successful parry

    another issue I found with parrying in CvS2...it cannot be used nor abused in the same manner like in 3S...

    maybe because it's a different game engine..maybe the characters have different priorities...maybe lotsa other different reasons...but so far, I found myself not being confident abt parrying incoming air attacks...n very unsure of how to punish a parried move.

    come to think of it..a large degree can be contributed to the fact I've only spent like.. a few hrs with the game...this view should differ when I do get the game
    P groove only has one super meter...and it's not the strongest as well..despite it being the hardest groove to use...a shinshoryuken from a groove meter just does not have the 'super' effect compared to a shin shoryuken from say..a C groove or a N groove.

    Sad to say, it's the only groove I am comfortable with right now~

    Never had the chance to get into Zero 2 n Zero 3...

    N groove can be used with way devestating results...second groove I am used to...( thanks to all those KOF yrs)

    K groove is kinda a fun groove to use.
    One the one hand..u can parry like P groove..but instead of tapping forward, u tap backwards...yet instead of the normal topset selection u get in Garou....K-groove users find themselves using the SS4 super meter..that builds up n once it is full..it activates itself on its own...allowing u to do massive damage even with normal moves...plus it normal moves also do damage when blocked~! (unless my eyes are fooling me...but there were six pair of eyes helping me to come to this conclusion)

    K-groove is amazingly fun when using Haomaru!~!



    <font color=red>~~~ 'Flock off feather brain, or u can stick around and find out the hard way!/versus/images/icons/mad.gif~~~'
     
  4. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    - So what's Just Defending again?

    It's from Garou:Mark of Wolves. Just Defence (JD from now) is similar to Parries in 3S, except it's performed by blocking the attack at the last moment (within 6 frames of the hit). It's benefits include no guard damage, increase in super, and a sliver of life recovered. Unlike parries, you do not cancel out of block stun so there's no opportunity to counter attack after a JD.

    - What's the timing to break Rock's 360 degree throw (with the 3Ps)? It seems awfully difficult for me to time it right and combo with the super. Rock's an awesome character...a mix between Geese and Terry, two among my favorite characters.

    Sounds like you're trying to cancel too late. Hit PPP while the opponent is still in Rock's grasp, and you'll see him recover with that arm-circling animation much much faster (almost instantly) allowing you to combo afterwards. A little trick is that you can actually cancel with two Ps instead of three, so get in the habit of entering 360+P~PP. Kind of strum it out with your fingers.

    - The first time I played in the arcade, I got challenged by Vega (M. Bison) right before my final stage. After I beat my final stage, I got challenged by an incredibly overpowered Akuma....I mean, damn, this Akuma was incredible (CPU, not human). It just totally destroyed me; I think one DP took off 1/3 of my life, or something insane like that. Anyway, I've never been able to get that again after playing my CVS2 DC many times through (8 stars and I usually don't lose). I've had Vega challenge me once again but that's it. Anyone know how to get this Akuma back? I'm ready for revenge!

    Sounds like Shin Gouki. Yes, he is a monster, and just wait till you check out God Rugal (although I think Shin Gouki is worse). In order to fight against them, you must satisfy certain conditions. According to one of the FAQs on GameFAQs:

    <font color=red>Geese / Vega: fulfill ALL of the following by the end of the fourth battle;
    -Never had a timeover
    -Com gets no more than five First Attacks against you
    -Com gets no more than two Super Combo KO's

    Gouki/Rugal: fulfill two of the following by the end of the final round;
    -Accumulate 1000+ Groove Points
    -Accumulate four Super Combo KO's
    -Get either Geese or Vega to appear and defeat him
    -Accumulate two SDM/lv3 Super Combos KO's

    Shin Gouki/God Rugal: fulfill two of the following by the end of the final round;
    -Accumulate 1500+ Groove Points
    -Get at least one Finest KO
    -Getting either Geese or Vega to appear and defeat him</font color=red>

    As for your comments about Capcom ripping off SNK.. That's one can of worms I'd rather not open. All in all I think it's a great improvement over the original CvS, and possibly the best 2D fighter developed by Capcom to date which appeals not only to a wider audience but also to the hardcore gamer. The best street fighter since ST in my mind.

    I took your comment about there being "practically no balance" with a grain of salt. Actually, make that a keg of salt considering you don't take the game "seriously" :) The fact right now is that it's early days and many are still exploring the different combinations and permutations of character/groove/ratio. Many are arguing that this could possibly be the most balanced game released by Capcom yet. Don't just take my word for it. Check out what they're saying at SRK:

    <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40308>CvS2: Get yo Groove on</A>
     
  5. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Hey Summers, parrying is definitely not as good as SFIII. I think the parry window is much smaller this time around.

    And K groove...this is the groove I most don't want to see the CPU use!
     
  6. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Hey Myke,

    Damn, I did all that to get Shin Gouki the first time I played in the arcades? Pretty cool.

    As for the balance issue, of course you should take my comments with a grain of salt. I've only been playing the game for narely a week, and have yet to participate regularly in high level competition. But like I mentioned, even among grooves I think there are balance issues. To me, N groove Geese seems better than P groove Geese, etc. In the thread you posted the first poster basically agrees...except because there are so many "types" (grooves and characters) the poster basically concludes you cannot tier characters. But that doesn't mean there are no balance issues. You can still have problematic character match-ups. And who's to say that N Geese and P Geese are the same entity? To me they are different.

    It's easy to tier the game (no such claim on accuracy); just do it GAMEST style, but treat each character and each groove differently. So there'll be # of characters * 6 grooves each, and that's the total number of "entities" that you'll have. Square them off to each other and tally the number of wins and tier accordingly. You can get a ranking in any game, balanced or no.

    As for the innovation thing...I never made the argument that SNK was more innovative than Capacom (ehh, I think, or at least I didn't meant to). What I was saying is that a lot of the system additions that I really like came from SNK. Big jumps, short hops, rolling, dodging--this is all stuff that increases mobility and gives you added control. This is the kind of style that I like to play with, as I believe it places emphasis on close combat as opposed to zoned, projectile/anti-air based type of gameplay. I mean, why do I like SFIII? Because of the parries, and because parries encourage the type of gameplay that I enjoy playing.

    Also, I'd play a game for fun, but it doesn't mean I'll not try to dominate; I just need regular competition to keep playing and improving.
     
  7. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    At first, I was way turned off about a number of things with CvS2, but my anti-CvS2 bias is sort of fading.... Mish-mash of various aspects of some systems = new game (or something like that)....

    It was probably the SF3:3S "representation" that really upset me in CvS2... We're not at a high level yet or anything, but P groove is lacking some things (though it's starting to look quite nice now, in a few aspects) and Yun just seems whacked right now. Where you had the SNK fans ripping on CvS1, I can imagine 3s Yun fans ripping on CvS2--if they care enough about Yun anyways... However, it looks like Chun Li is very much the 3s version of her, and that's a bitch for her opponents I would assume... I haven't played the game enough to tell for sure.

    I've been enjoying just about all of the grooves. Most people I talk to about the game believe N groove to be strongest, but time will tell. I've mostly been using A,P, and K groove myself.

    I really wish quick-recovery or tech-rolls (not regular rolls) existed in P groove. Is it me or does P groove sort of alter the supers in a way similar to 3s? Not in terms of one meter (heck, 3s had various #s of meters depending on which art you selected), but in the sense of the priority of supers. Might be my imagination, but it seemed like P Groove has something close to the 3s super arts in how they would have priority depending on which super, how well they can cancel some things, etc... I haven't tried out any special-super links like 3s, but guess I should.

    Anyways, fun game. I am enjoying it. Don't know how much I'll be playing it though...

    -Chanchai
     
  8. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    One thing that really annoyed me when I first played CvS2 with Pgroove was the amount of flashy effects when supers were being executed.

    window of opportunity to punish seemed different, guess I'll have to work out new ideas on how to use em.

    I cannot get a good look at the shinku hadouken because it's so damn colorful~! /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

    Plus...trying to parry haomaru or hibiki is a real nightmare~!

    Just a couple of days ago, there was this Japanese player using the freakinfg indian baldy in the best possible manner...nightmarish stuff for P groove...

    Of coz, I could have just selected S groove..walk over...dodge n bob him...

    n of coz, I forgot abt the S-groove until 5 mins ago~!

    Still..the ultimate goal is to master the parry system..n use it with a ratio 4 character...whoo hoo~!

    I certainly don't think it is the most balanced game Capcom ever made, yet very fun though~!

    <font color=red>~~~ 'Flock off feather brain, or u can stick around and find out the hard way!/versus/images/icons/mad.gif~~~'
     
  9. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Woo-hoo, I got God Rugal! He definitely wasn't as difficult as Shin Akuma, beat him on my first try...G. Rugal's super (the one with the flash kick) surprisingly doesn't have good priority. I traded hits with him many times with normal attacks.
     

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