Different levels of Flamingo Mix ups

I've been out lately and off the ole VF getting college and work done but when I jumped on recently I was noticing some interesting mix up theories with Sarah FL.

VF5 Flamingo /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif = VF4EVO Flamingo /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif

Well not totally but wait up a bit an listen to me.

In VF4EVO P2K was a strong move from flamingo cause essentially you would beat him out 100% of the time and defeat the most annoying counter option to FL; crouching guard/delay low punch. It also caused a big phatty stagger on crouch guard and it was pretty decent damage for a lil' 1-2 jab kick.

We lost that moves effectiveness in VF4FT but imo I believe we have found a decent replacement in VF5 /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif.

Why? Well first off let's analyze a weak point in FL that most don't look at: jabbing back at Sarah.

This is such a powerful option for say Pai, Eileen, and definately Vanessa! (she can defeat FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif after any blocked entry with DS /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif) And it forces you to either use high risk options (sweep) or stick to low reward options (FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif). Since the best answer to jabbing back for sarah is to jab or flamingo kick back herself (if possible) this makes it easy for Pai/Eileen/Vanessa to counter-condition Sarah and duck the highs.

I think /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif becomes a useful option here. Again why:

#1 At 12 frames, at any advantage minus the sabaki Sarah has enough advantage to defeat any fast jabs or vanessa /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif. If you do hit, you can actually hit confirm the MC to both the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif ender or preferably the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif(hit)/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif(hit)/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif ender for about 30-40 dmg and +4 into Flamingo again.

#2 This series will also defeat the crouch guard in a safe manner (compared to say /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif). The /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif will crouch stagger and the stagger is fairly decent. If your opponent fails to struggle /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is guaranteed. If they do struggle you still get a strong nitaku which you can follow up with say /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (rinse, repeat huh?) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

What I've noticed with Sarah is that her Flamingo is basically a bunch of unique moves that are meant to specifically defeat two scenarios but unfortunately not much more than that. (ex: /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif defeats lows and the high guard, but if your opponent attacks back, crouch guards, or evades ur screwed)

 

Its simply a guessing game, to beat FL K they must use a high attack, and if they do that, you do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and grab the initiative back (to throw/ FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif guessing game).
yoomii /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/tired.gif

edit: assuming youre talking about the 'smart' flamingo entries

ps. I use FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif much too much myself /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif

 

I'm kind of scared to use that to be honest, because I don't know the starting frames on the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif portion of it. It's atleast more than 12, but if it's just 1 frame ahead in it's hitting phase then that's not bad. I still have no clue.

FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif(i've become a big fan of this move) starts in 17 frames and is -5 on block, 0 on hit, and if they're staggered already then you get the crumple for the combo, or if your opponent attacks out of turn you get the counter hit for the crumple then combo.

with FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif i don't know the start up frames on that 2nd hit. But what I do know is that it's -6 on block and -1 on normal hit aswell as just being a +5 on counter in comparison to /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif being a crumple.

Also, the options from FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif can be sidestepped in either direction. So I'm guessing that means that if your opponent tends to crouch immediately on Sarah's FL entries then they can possible sidestep when they avoid the first high(which is only possible from the backside of /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif) .

On the plus side of things, you're now out of flamingo and have much safer defensive options when at a disadvantage, and this might be a good move to do on people that tend to crouch under /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and immediately /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif like you're saying, but I'm still unsure on if /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif in FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif beats immediate /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif. Does it?

What about just doing FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif?
You get the same effects except your high attack is 9 frames instead of 12, but you lose the JF low.

 

FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif

 

Yeah I meant that oops /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

 

The big problem with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is dinky reward.

The knee doesn't crouch stagger and normal hit is like -1 (since you don't stagger that means if you catch him crouching your at -1 still). The knee is also 3 damage less which is rather depressing too.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif MC needs at least +5 and thats only for Wolf, Jeff, Aoi, El Blaze. You need +6 for the rest of the cast and +7 for Pai/Eileen/Sarah (technically +8 for Vanessa bleh). The crouch stagger is nice but it's easy to struggle out of the crumple follow up meaning /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is all that is guaranteed. Not only that but if you are at mid/max range nothing is guaranteed /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

What I'm saying is using /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif to beat:

#1 Attacking back with non-crouch move (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif etc)
#2 Beating crouch guard and/or delay low punch (classic anti flamingo)

Other nice pluses:
-both hits are safe on block
-decent range
-the first attack has a short animation (total frames) meaning you aren't 100% pwned if evaded like you are with many pokes from Flamingo, and it leaves you out of stance for defense.

Imo if you have conditioned people to evade you need to start throwing out the gatling kicks throw, 60 free dmg is always nice.

I like using /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif when it's guaranteed or my opponent is evading FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, that's an excellent time to use it. It's great if you hit it cause it's free damage into a strong mix up from FL again. But it's hard for me to use it alot being I miss EVO +6 on block and special high ender /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

 

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif comboes on normal hit. Dunno what you are wondering about. You can even hitcheck it with good reflexes. Hitting opponent with it is also pretty much the most bread and butter position you can be in with Sarah. Plus the move works both in and outside flamingo. Only bad thing is that its two pure high attacks.. I admit that cuts its use down considerably.

FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif the mid attack is imo too slow, meaning it imo will lose to low punch and such and thats a big problem, considering the move doesnt give much even in the best situation. I tried using it but quickly stopped as it simply didnt work. It can be blocked on reflex imo, its that slow.
If you are planning on NOT winning low attacks, I say do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif or in slightly less advantageous situation, FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif~/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif which is pretty much the safest option.

 

I was wondering about the first hit being crouched or blocked, sorry I didn't clarify. I was thinking the thread was all about someone crouching immediately after Sarah's FL entry, anyway.

Samething for FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif too. Meaning the first hit being crouched/blocked how fast is the actual 2nd hit adding it up with the first. If the block the FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and then try to /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif they probably get kicked in the face on the 2nd hit, like how /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif works. Crouched I didn't know if the kick was actually fast enough.

 

Should they block the second hit of /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, its only -1 on block, meaning Sarah FL P will beat everything thats slower than 10 frames (and or low attacks/high crush moves). /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is -3 on block if you hitcheck it.

ps. Sarah has lots of options to opponents that crouch.. FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif being one of the better ones for example. Or you can do FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif stagger to /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and back to square one where Sarah is on top.

 

You're still misunderstanding me.

Not the 2nd hit being blocked, the 1st hit. So the opponent blocks the 1st hit of these 2 hitters, and decides to crouch the 2nd into an immediate(not talking delayed. Unsafe Dan said delayed and that's where FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif shines he was saying) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif.

If you've already started /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif it's too late if you were or weren't in flamingo, either way you're now out of flamingo anyway unless you continue to the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif(which could get /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif'd or evaded to Sarah's back side.

I have a much easier time defeating my opponents(or stand a better chance of winning haha) if they crouch when Sarah enters flamingo, I said in my first post about how I'm a big fan of FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif.

From that point, if it's a counter hit I get the crumple for a combo, if it's just a stagger I do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif putting Sarah at +6 and start trap all over again but with a larger advantage or taking the safe route and stopping with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and leave out with +4 and start a new flowchart. If your opponent attacks out of turn when Sarah is +6 or higher that's a crumple right there.

*sidenote: If you back dash buffer switch kick from /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and use FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif you will defeat /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif for the stagger.

 

Manjimaru:

If /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is too slow and can be guarded on reaction don't you think /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif can be guarded on reaction running in at 20 frames and being rather obvious looking?

I mean to me I look at reward more:

If /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif hits a crouching opponent I do some damage and send my opponent FAR AWAY outside of any further FL pressure, basically giving my opponent a free ride in exchange for a bit of damage.

If /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif hits crouching opponents I get a strong stagger situation which will either net my guaranteed /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif or very strong nitaku.

Defensively, blocked/evaded /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is a nightmare where as blocked evaded /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is managable.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif exceeds /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif when you know your opponent will do a low, or more so when they have their backs to a wall since it causes a strong wall stagger.

But you can note, if you expect a low, why not use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif etc? They give you much better reward/position unless you have thier back to a wall.

I'm not saying /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is the absolute best option against crouching. One thing about Flamingo that I noted earlier is there really is NO best option when you are at +0 to +4. Even +5 and +6 gets blurry depending on the character you face.

Everytime I enter +2 to +4 situations with Sarah most knowledgeble people I play will use a defensive mix up between crouch guard/delayed low punch and jabing back. In this scenario I found a practicaly use for /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, if people were blocking my /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif ender it simply meant I needed to low kick combo them more to get them to duck or just use Slide's ideal /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif or for randomness go to STEP.

Slide:

As I said /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif has some problems outside of +5 - +8. Jabbing back is becoming very annoying and good strugglers and range differences can ruin it sometimes. I do use it to beat crouching but it's not as safe as /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif to me.

Another thing is blocked/evaded sarah is really screwed /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

 

I was thinking telegraphing your intent with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, allowing people who crouch guard against flamingo rise to block the followup.. but to each their own, I guess. I admit that /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif~/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif~/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is very good instead if you get the just frames down (I cant atm). But even that will lose to low punch, even slightly delayed low punch cause its so slow. Using FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif followups is imo bit like using step...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif hits crouching opponents I get a strong stagger situation which will either net my guaranteed /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif or very strong nitaku.
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I guess. After hit /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif you can do flamingo dash however, which you can interrupt at any point with any other flamingo move.. With good distancing you can do what you like or just G-cancel out of flamingo and do something from normal stance. (Or do PP-string) The real reason why I like FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is that it also beats low attacks (jumps over them) in addition to being true mid attack. There is also no preceding high attack to telegraph your intent.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Defensively, blocked/evaded /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is a nightmare where as blocked evaded /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is managable.
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Um well, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is -3 on block and pushes opponent away while /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is -6 on block? Ok, its fuzziable but still.

After FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is blocked, her FL P will still interrupt any elbowspeed move or slower, FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif~/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif or FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif~/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif will evade most every quick linear attack, and another FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif will still beat low punch among other things. (FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif will even beat high punch) Dunno but imo blocked FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is FAR easier for opponent to do something about with. not to mention that it still loses to low punch.

Maybe I just think too fancy *shrug* /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
But you can note, if you expect a low, why not use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif etc? They give you much better reward/position unless you have thier back to a wall.
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Reason to use FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif over FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is if youre unsure whether opponent will just crouch guard.. If opponent has tried to crouch guard/fuzzy or delay their counter attacks (like the classic delayed LP), FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is somewhat 'safe' way to probe them. Plus it can lead to abovementioned surprise guessing games which Im pretty sure most people arent even aware of. Most people would think they can attack freely after blocking something like FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. They cant. (shit, most people seem ot think they can attack freely after getting hit by /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif!)

FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif isnt that good since it loses to low attacks and is slow, 22 frames so it loses to high/mid attacks as well too often. Plus it has no evasive properties whatsoever. On second thought I say its downright awful. I rarely use it, usually only to keep mixing stuff up. If youre going for something that slow you should do FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif~/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif instead imo (its flat out faster btw, 17 frames).

FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif...style points aside, I use this extremely rarely as it loses to everything that isnt a low punch... or delayed low punch..
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I'm not saying /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is the absolute best option against crouching. One thing about Flamingo that I noted earlier is there really is NO best option when you are at +0 to +4. Even +5 and +6 gets blurry depending on the character you face.

Everytime I enter +2 to +4 situations with Sarah most knowledgeble people I play will use a defensive mix up between crouch guard/delayed low punch and jabing back. </div></div>
This is what I expect as well. Let it be said that I never use FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif unless I have sufficient frame advantage to beat everything except guard or evade. The other flamingo stuff comes to picture due to evasive properties or other reasons.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Another thing is blocked/evaded sarah is really screwed /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif </div></div>

Evaded maybe, but blocked..nah. You just need to think outside the box and use moves with evasive properties.. Youd be surprised.. If you are being evaded, need to use FL throws, or FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif (KD on normal hit, beats high attacks) or even FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif which is nice anti-sabaki move as well. (I admit I havent had use for it yet since very few people have thought about sabakis playing against my Sarah...yet. You can even do tricks like FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif - delay /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif.


PS. I admit I am partial to flowcharting, and hence my goal playing Sarah in a match is to keep opponent on back foot constantly until I get chance to combo or throw. For this reason Im not looking at max damage at every opportunity, but rather keeping myself in advantageous situation. Thats just my playstyle I guess.

PPS. Dang it, Sarah is still just my sub character..

EDIT: LOL after blocked FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif will beat OM P from both directions /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif (in addition to beating basically everything else but high and low punches too) One more example how one must think outside the moralist box with Sarah..

 

FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is great because on normal hit it leaves Sarah at +8.

It's a great move to use at back dash buffered switch kick range, when you've used FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, or FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif often.

FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is a NIGHTMARE on block leaving Sarah at -6, and it also sucks if you didn't connect the hit throw and leaves Sarah at -4 on normal hit and -1 on counter hit. But it's still extremely good, especially when you've got the hit throw down.

FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif on guard/block is only -3.

Whenever Sarah is in flamingo at disadvantage she has 4 great options:

1. FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif
2. FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif
3. FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif(with or without /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif)
or 4. FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif

#1 Only loses to circulars and delayed throws(unless you input throw escapes during). I think the evasive properties of this move starts on the 1st frame. You can get away with murder in flamingo if your opponent can't stop this. In alot of cases, your opponent literally has to CHASE Sarah and throw or chase and do the circular, which in alot of circumstances it's too late by then, and could be wide open from whiffing to eat a Dragon Cannon.

#2 Will go under every standing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif no matter what, because Sarah enters crouching state right away, it is also only -11 on guard so Sarah is STILL in a state to avoid any punishment depending on the right choice between options 1-4.

#3 Will get you out of both /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif from opponent depending on Sarah's timing as far as how much she's at disadvantage.

#4 This will beat all standing options that are slower than Sarah's disadvantage tagged on to an additional 9 frames. Do the math here, the worry is /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, and... evades.

So imo alot of it comes down to if your opponent has the right immediate tools to stop options 1-4, otherwise Sarah can use flamingo constantly.

Again range on flamingo is VERY important because like I said in my previous post, say you do a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif guarded back dash buffered /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif(switch kick), you can now do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and BEAT opponents /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, so at that range it doesnt matter if they crouch and do a delayed /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or not, they're going to get kicked in the face now. Where, as if you didnt back dash buffer switch kick, you'll get beat out every single time. Escape options 1-4 on Sarah's max range of switch kick allows her to avoid the immediate retaliations.

Try this stuff in the dojo. Kaminari_Oyaji and I, both have been talking and experimenting with ranges on alot of these things.

And I also have been reading:

Babelfish this site: http://fantasistadrive.ame-zaiku.com/
It's from Japanese Sarah, NORI.

 

Its not so great cause it takes 22 frames to come out.. But hey, everybody has their own techniques /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif (I will try to use it more now though..)



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Whenever Sarah is in flamingo at disadvantage she has 4 great options:

1. FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif
2. FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif
3. FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif(with or without /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif)
or 4. FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif

#1 Only loses to circulars and delayed throws(unless you input throw escapes during). I think the evasive properties of this move starts on the 1st frame. You can get away with murder in flamingo if your opponent can't stop this. In alot of cases, your opponent literally has to CHASE Sarah and throw or chase and do the circular, which in alot of circumstances it's too late by then, and could be wide open from whiffing to eat a Dragon Cannon.

#2 Will go under every standing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif no matter what, because Sarah enters crouching state right away, it is also only -11 on guard so Sarah is STILL in a state to avoid any punishment depending on the right choice between options 1-4.

#3 Will get you out of both /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif from opponent depending on Sarah's timing as far as how much she's at disadvantage.

#4 This will beat all standing options that are slower than Sarah's disadvantage tagged on to an additional 9 frames. Do the math here, the worry is /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, and... evades.

So imo alot of it comes down to if your opponent has the right immediate tools to stop options 1-4, otherwise Sarah can use flamingo constantly.
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Agreed /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Imo theres very little that opponent can do to beat both 1.) and 4.) at the same time..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Again range on flamingo is VERY important because like I said in my previous post, say you do a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif guarded back dash buffered /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif(switch kick), you can now do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and BEAT opponents /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, so at that range it doesnt matter if they crouch and do a delayed /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or not, they're going to get kicked in the face now. Where, as if you didnt back dash buffer switch kick, you'll get beat out every single time. Escape options 1-4 on Sarah's max range of switch kick allows her to avoid the immediate retaliations.
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Um care to tell how you do backdash buffered switch kick? Is that, like,
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif?

If youre close range you can beat low punch straight using normal stance /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. It would otherwise be great move except it has extremely short range. (+2 on block, +4 normal,+8 counter, enters flamingo and causes crouch stagger iirc). This move beats low punch at nearly every situation, as long as its in range.

 

Yeah

It's a very important tool imo

 

Manjimaru:

If people delay low punch /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif will win, if they are slightly delay (like frames difference) low punch then do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif cause the second hit will connect on MC and give you the wacky +11. I mean if people are looking for /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif to stand up then obviously you should JF low kick them a bunch.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is a MUCH better choice than /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif when you are away from a wall. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif will jump over lows just as good as /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (try it) and if gives you far far FAR better reward on normal and counter hit.

What sucks about /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is that unless you have them near a wall using it is a lose/lose. The Flamingo dash can't be canceled fast enough (and even if you did you'd still be way out of range) to put any decent mix up on your opponent. If it's blocked a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif will beat everything except sweep (the second hit will track the Flamingo evade). Hell for some characters they can sweep you back to defeat flip/evade//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif

All that for basically getting nothing unless they have their back to wall. I'd rather risk /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif:/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is nice but again in this scenario you have to pay close attention to the range cause your opponent can backdash out of any serious retaliation, sometimes even if they are hit.