Evo Ver.A Command List Updates

Good stuff Myke. I like. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Looks good /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

This whole counter-class-instead-of-frames is elitist /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Lemme explain.
To make use of these tables, I have to interpret the arcane little notes like dis.m into english, and from there into frames, and from there into character-appropriate responses. Newbies and vets alike have to do that. But the current terms for counterability are completely outdated. Because I've been playing for a while, I can understand that and adapt... i.e. I know heavy punch counterable means I want to high kick with pai, I know elbow counterable means I want to shot knee with jeffry.

From a newbie's perspective though, I don't think this is helpful at all.
Sure, you can play lau and figure out that f+P looks like an elbow, and see "elbow-class" counterability... and respond every time with f+P,P for a decent little chunk. But a better response is probably b,f+P...and elbow class is meaningless to a pai player. People playing Jacky in evo might not know that his goofy little chest punch is an elbow, or that akira's f+P is no longer an elbow and is now heavy punch class, or that wolf's f+P is beatknuckle class or whatever you wanna call it. Worse, they might think "ok, wolf has a standard elbow.. db+P" .. except it's a knee class move. Or "ok, that's not the elbow they meant, lemme try b+P" .. and then that fails because it's actually upper class.

I'd rather have the hard frame data somewhere in there, then people can cut out a step. Regardless of anything, when they see disadvantage notes, they will need to study frames to figure out the best response. They -must- interpret "heavy punch class counterable" into minus 13 in order to browse through a movelist for an appropriate 13 frame counterattack, after all there are no notes that tell them that pai's high kick is heavy punch class.

In short these lists are only immediately accessible and useful to vets, newbies will have to memorize a dozen new terms and will have an extra step in translating the recovery column into an effective counterattack. Is all this so we can make the claim that we're doing it the Japanese do it in some guides?

 

Looks good to me, keep up the good work /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

As to how accessible it is to newbies, I respectfully disagree with Creed here. Here is why:

IMO, frame advantage and disadvantage should not be the first thing a newcomer should look into. The learning process should be a 'gentle' one, and a newcomer should start by learning his/her character's moves very well. "This move floats. That move takes some time to recover when blocked, so I better be carefull. This move recovers fast enough for me to block, evade, or do something else. Etc.... ". So I don't mean a player should look into frames after memorising the moves, but rather after really understanding how the moves work (Or a majority of them at least).

With a better understanding of one's moves, I think it will become easier later on for a person to understand frames this way, because some basis that coincide with frames knowledge was built when the player was learning the moves.

Also, I think that raw numbers may look more intimidating than counter classes. Maybe it's easier for me to say this because I already understand the previous system, but I am thinking a newcomer interested in frames would not spend more time learning counter classes than he would learning raw number frames /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif. Just a thought .

 

Myke, I like how you have the counter class in there. It helps the thought process actually imo. But I think you should make the column width for those wider and make the notes column shorter. Maybe even the movelist name column shorter also. Instead of using one centered line for the notes, try using two non centered line. The abbreviations are too short to be read well.
/versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

abbreviated terms make baby jesus cry.

thumbs down on those stupid things.

 

Also, I think that raw numbers may look more intimidating than counter classes. Maybe it's easier for me to say this because I already understand the previous system, but I am thinking a newcomer interested in frames would not spend more time learning counter classes than he would learning raw number frames . Just a thought .

Didn't you just agree with me?

Let me put it another way.
If a new player has no intention of using frames but wants a general idea of how bad someone's recovery is... which of the following is more intuitive at glace?

spod: upper
E-bc: el
shrm:p.s

or

spod: -15
e-bc: -14
shrm: -13

I know the goal is to get players to start thinking of a move's counterability as falling into a certain "class". That's a good goal. But realistically, nobody will never ever come to understand "elbow class" unless they know the number behind it. Numbers are universally understood. "upper" is not. Even when myke puts in a legend explaining that upper means -15, it's still useless to put into practice until you know "I can counterattack with something up to 15 frames, but not 16 frames or higher". Knowing a move is heavy punch counterable is great, but it's not intuitive for a pai player who doesn't have "heavy punches". In fact it's deceptive, I might be wasting my time with PPP counters when I should be doing K float combos.

Myke, having already created a valid template with verbal counter frames, probably isn't going to want to give up his baby. The way I'd do it...
(sorry for the huge gap, dunno how to get rid of it)

KEY
<font color="yellow">Heavy Punch class</font>
<font color="orange">Elbow class</font>
<font color="red">Upper class</font>
<table border=1 cellpadding=10>
<tr>
<td>Stun Palm</td><td bgcolor=#FF0000><font color=#000000>-15[/b]</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Evading Bodycheck</td><td bgcolor=#FF8800><font color=#000000>-14</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Shoulder Ram</td><td bgcolor=#FFFF00><font color=#000000>-13</td>
</tr></font>
</table>

 

Hmmm... Now I see your point about them being as intimidating at a first glance, but I still think that the time spent on learning how to use counter classes instead shouldn't be longer than the time spent on learning the meaning behind the raw numbers (Since you need to know that a throw is possible at this many advantage frames, and a punch at that many frames. It's about the same with counter classes, since you look into different categories, 2 or 3 of those might be more useful to you depending on your playstyle. One can look for the category of medium punches, and the one for high throws. One can learn the abbreviations for those first and go from there to the others when the need arises).

I think I will just wait and see what people think of them after some usage. Maybe my previous knowledge is clouding my judgement /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

I have one question though. I can't think of many in game situations where I can block a certain move and then immediately know for sure, at that exact moment, that I can counter attack with a specific move other than a regular punch or a throw for example (Counter attack with a knee or an elbow). Or the case when I block a really really slow recovering move where I know I can do just about anything. I am not saying it's impossible, but do people often do it that way (I mean assigning specifc counter moves to specific blocked moves on reflex)? I am just wondering, because it's amazing if people can do that consistantly and, more importantly, on reflex. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[ QUOTE ]
Or the case when I block a really really slow recovering move where I know I can do just about anything. I am not saying it's impossible, but do people often do it that way (I mean assigning specifc counter moves to specific blocked moves on reflex)? I am just wondering, because it's amazing if people can do that consistantly and, more importantly, on reflex.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I recpgnize on reflex most of the -13 situations in the game and try to stpm them with lau. Occasionally I'm a frame or two slow thinking about it and the stpm is guarded or dodged. I'm getting pretty good at using upkn-spkn when a high or special high attack whiffs over my head though.

So yeah, it's possible. For some characters it's pretty no-brainer (i.e for pai at -13 and higher, pretty much nothing beats a high kick float, and for -11, -12, punch is all you can do)

My final word (coff) on the movelists: It turns out that we're switching to verbal guard indicators because doing numbers would be impossible (or at least a big pain in the ass) -
A: because we don't have them all yet and
B: because that guard column must be either all numbers or all text.
A range of numbers represented by -1 ~ -2 or -1 - -2 or [-1 -2] is impossible. Without all the numbers, there's no way to represent that range accurately due to html issues.

 

Myke, sorry if you said this before but, how come do you have damage for some moves in EVO, and no damage for other moves?.. Don't kick my ass, me too naive.

 

Nice work Myke keep it up it's really appreciated! /versus/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

Oh..sorry Myke. Didn't notice that. So where are you getting all that information from? From the Free Training in the Ps2 Evo?

BTW, where can i get a really nice FAQ that explains ALL of that Frame stuff. I would really like to improve my deep love for VF, and timing plays a big part so.. If there's a Faq about Frames, tell me please as i didn't find it in the VF4 section of this site. Thank you! /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

VMT: He is probably using past information from the Version A Green Book and other similar guides. The PS2 version of VF4E is Version B which is newer than the information being posted.

 

AhA! This time you can't get me Mr.Bungle!! I SEARCHED! LOL!
I've noticed that my Sarah's Main Mid-air Combo starter, or Dragon Smash Cannon, is gone from the Evo command list. Was it substituted for a new command or was it really taken out? I didn't find a command in the list with the same name, so I guess it was really taken out. Does anyone know why, and if it was really taken out, is there a similar move that might be as useful or more useful than her ?