Fighting against faster characters

So I'm relatively new to VF4, and I've been playing Lei. My main competition usually plays Akira, and I have no trouble schooling him. However when he switches to a faster character like Pai or Aoi the tables are turned and I can't seem to do a thing. I end up perpetually on the defensive, and the only combos I can seem to get in start with very fast but weak moves. I've tried to slow down and make more deliberate choices but when I do this I seem to be too slow. Are my reflexes just not good enough?

So any suggestions from you vets on how to take down a fast character with a slower one? I think the problem here is that Lei is not a big guy, his attacks do not do as much damage as Jeffry; yet he's only mid-speed compared to the rest, and while he has good defense recovery time his attacks seem to take too long to start.

Thanks for your help!

 

vs jab 3 options
sabaki +
low ducking attack +
or reverse humiliate stance

it all depends on how well you can read your opponent

anything other than a jab poke, you can most likely sidestep safely to continue advantage. cancel into combos, only if they're still aggressive (hit check), or throw if they're on the defensive after sidestep.

another option to beat that is stance into + - sidestepping low sweep

any other move is probably slower and will leave you at advantage if you block.

 

[ QUOTE ]
vs jab 3 options
sabaki +
low ducking attack +
or reverse humiliate stance

it all depends on how well you can read your opponent

anything other than a jab poke, you can most likely sidestep safely to continue advantage. cancel into combos, only if they're still aggressive (hit check), or throw if they're on the defensive after sidestep.

another option to beat that is stance into + - sidestepping low sweep

any other move is probably slower and will leave you at advantage if you block.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks! That makes sense, I'll give it a shot. And as always practice practice practice...

 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the problem here is that Lei is not a big guy, his attacks do not do as much damage as Jeffry;

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It may motivate you to hear that Lei is a fucking bitch to play against because his combos do insane damage, and he somehow always seems to have initiative and I keep getting killed by people who play that damn monk! He is by far the chara I fear most.

 

To remedy your fear you should simply play the character for awhile and understand how he or she functions and what is possible. If you refuse to take this route you will eventually suffer for a longtime. I have been down this road and it isn't fun.
Goodluck

 

If you feel that Aoi and Pai are too fast it may be because your opponent is abusing the strings that they both have. Interrupt the strings with . Follow that with Lei's crouching for the crumpling counter hit. If your opponent starts blocking or evading that, follow your with a throw.

 

Also don't forget to use ++. It's not something you can use all the time, but like you said, if your opponent keeps using p all the time it does come in handy.

What about using +, are there any other uses for it besides using it after ++.

 

other than the ++ i already mentioned

wtf are you talking about
16 frame hopkick to beat jabs which is impossible to do out of the stance

 

Hello Redames, welcome to VF^^.

I don't play Lei, but I've fought against both Aoi and Pai a good ammount (I use Akira, Wolf, Jeffry etc), and know a little about Lei; so I'll add what I can.

I think that while Lei isn't the fastest, or most powerful character, he also isn't the weakest, or slowest, by a long shot. Like most good fighting games, VF's characters have a balance to them. Pai and Aoi might be faster, but they can't attack with the kind of power slower/power type characters have. Lei is a "balance" type (like Jacky, Lau, Sarah etc). He has all the best kinds of assets: power moves, good pokes, Sabakis, a nice Reversal, Mid and Low Spin Kicks, and the almost exclusive ability to stagger (for a possible big combo) from a Low Attack. Many of his attacks have evasive properties, a lot of his moves are pretty safe, some give advantage on guard, and he has many nice mid and long range attacks.

My overall point is to think about Lei's strengths, not his weaknesses (esp. relative to other characters). Also, true for any fighting game, try to control the flow of the match. If you're fighting trying to "crack" the other guy's game, he's in control of the fight, and you're putting yourself at a disadvantage. Force him to play your game, Lei is good at this.

Lei has a lot of strings that he can play guessing games out of, the simplest one I can think of is .

--> Throw
-->
--> Mid Attack from +++ stance.
etc.

(again, I don't know that much about Lei). These ideas: applying a guessing game from advantage, usually between a Mid and a Throw, are the basis of VF, what people call Nitaku (a forced 2-choice guessing game). Another one:



++, delay string
++--> Throw

this one's good from mid range, same idea. If you counter hit with the ++ right off the bat, I think a nice combo is available too.

At the most basic level, did you do all the "Tactics Advice" for Lei in Training Mode? Have you seen all the Lei relpays on the Evo disc? Hanabi Lei is the player, he's really good. Try copying all of those flows when you play (usually how I try to learn a character at first).

Against Pai: this one I have a lot of practice with, and it ain't easy. If you could elaborate on what kinds of attacks your friend is using, it'd help. Pai's biggest weaknesses IMO are her weight and lack of power. If you can float Pai, she's in trouble. When fighting Pai (and Aoi), I tend to throw out a lot more big floaters: combo damage against them is so high, it's worth the risk. 2 fat combos against either of them and that about finishes them, you only need to guess right a couple times & you've got 'em.

Pai players love to use + () to start flows. If the first hit connects with a Counter Hit and they stop there, you can't duck a Throw because you're at -3 or 4 frames. That means you'll have to attack, but another + will eat your low P (and in general, Pai's at advantage here, so her attacks will come out quicker). You have to be really careful here.

Don't freeze up against Pai. With her ability to use +, +, , +, etc to pressure at high speed with repeated pokes, it's crucial to not just hold and look for an opening. Dodge is your friend here. Most Pais will pressure up close with linear attacks. Once you start to see the timing, try Dodging the next one. Another bit of good news is that most Pais will try to Throw with either the or ending directions, so breaking these 2 directions (esp ) will help a lot when you smell a Throw.

The other big danger I face when I have to fight Pai is that she's VERY strong against Tech Rolls. Pai has High, Mid, and Low Spin Kicks, High and Low Throws, and a move that catches Tech Rollers. In general, Crouching Guard will protect you against the High Throws, HIgh and Low attacks, and the roll-catcher (/++). But, this leaves you open to the Low Throws, Mid Spin Kick, + etc. The one thing I'd probably never try against Pai when I roll is a Dodge, but that's just me. Sometimes I try a little back-dash, or just don't roll, and try to input recovery ASAP the second I hit the ground. Her Ukemizeme is just so strong, odds are against a safe Tech Roll.

against Aoi:

If I were Lei against Aoi, I'd probably try to stay in mid-range, using Lei's great ranged moves. Aoi basically has no ranged game, at all. Off the top of my head, Aoi's only moves with range are her sweep and +. Outside of + range, Aoi seems powerless. Close range is another story

Up close, Aoi players usually build everything around her Elbows and canceling out of them into a Throw/Stronger Mid, or finishing the string. Not sure if your friend is doing this. Using these games, it is really easy for Aoi to get the upper hand. The other bad news is that since Aoi has very powerful reversals/Inashis, she can cover herself well when you find an opening (esp since almost all attacks Aoi players use up close are safe).

Against the +++ Inashi, remember that she can't catch 2-limbed Attacks, Jumping Attacks, Spin Attacks or Low Attacks, all of which Lei has great examples of. Against her standard Reversals, the key is to not get predictable, or to trick Aoi into using the wrong one. IE Aoi's reversing all the Mids you're throwing at her: use ++ /versus/images/graemlins/cool.gif.

Also, against both girls, with regards to Attacks they're both about 75% Punch, 25% Kick (Aoi a little more so): whore +++ every time you smell a (one-handed) punch!

anyway, I typed too much, I'm sure others can elaborate

Bryan

 

These are all excellent suggestions! Many of them have helped already, but I need much more practice until I can function at a level where I'm making the right decisions quick enough. Watching the videos on the disc was also extrememly helpful in a general way- which combos to use in certain situations, which moves *aren't* used, etc.

 

Akiralove lays down some good info on creating a foundation in VF and I just wanted to add a little bit on the use of "Knifehand" :

Since this move's follow-up can be delayed and float for a combo most people won't attack right away after defending it, therefore, a mix of delay or throw may come in handy. Just remember though, like with all tactics - don't become predictable /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif