Following up on Vault Throw/Slide Under?

So Shun Di has two throws that leave your opponent backturned.

Tenshin Souko (flip over back)


This move grabs your opponent and you flip over them on their back an you end up on the opposite side where your opponent is backturned.

The other is
Tenshin Soukeikyaku


This one you slide under between the opponent's legs and scorpion kick them on the back, also ending up on the enemy's backside.

So for the first one, the flip over the back, I've seen videos where it followed up with the back throw that gets 6 drink points, but am wondering if there is a timing trick or if walking forward is required to land the throw. I am either out of range for the back throw, or my opponent ducks under. Is the throw guaranteed?

What about the slide under? How are you supposed to follow that one up?

 

I'm pretty sure that the back throw is not able to be simply executed after the first throw. I'll try it out again tonight but I'm fairly certain when I tested it Shun isn't close enough to the opponent to simply buffer the throw, you have to walk or dash forward into the throw.

Speaking completely theoretically, I suppose if you dashed in quickly enough you could use it. If the opponent guards immediately it will take 4 frames (on top of the advantage gained from the flip-over throw) to go side-turned, in which case the backthrow won't come out. So you have total 14 or 16 frames (11 or 13 + 3 frames) before the opponent is side-turned, meaning 4/6 frames to dash forward and execute the throw (10 frames) in time. Will have to test whether this is possible, would be very tight timing.

You would also have to keep in mind that though it would take 14/16 frames for the opponent to get to side-turned, they can attack as soon as they have recovered from the initial throw. So if they call you out on your backthrow and attack immediately, you would only have 1 or 3 frames to dash forward, which ain't gonna happen. So if it is possible to buffer that dash to a back throw, your opponent has an (admittedly still risky) way of beating out the throw and turning the tables.

Chouwan () is your go to option after these throws, as frame-wise your opponent cannot either guard or attack in time to beat it, and it nets you a nice little combo. I think the only thing that would reliably beat it is a move that has sabaki properties, from memory Vanessa's BT + can do this, but BT sabakis are pretty rare amongst the cast. You'll need 6 DP to use Chouwan however - Below that I guess it's just , that's reliable, can't think of anything else.

 

OK so having actually tested this, it doesn't seem to be possible to get a backthrow before the opponent turns around. The 'quickest' result I could get is a side throw.

If you change the CPU to neutral (no input to turn around and face you), then you can execute a backthrow. If your opponent tries to duck without guarding, a backthrow will beat it, but if they guard they will be turning around and a sidethrow will execute. So there doesn't seem to be a practical way of pulling it off, would be interesting to see the video of it to see if there is some trick to it.

 

Here is the video 35 seconds in he does the flip over to back throw. I am thinking that maybe the shun got lucky and the guy didn't crouch guard.

http://youtu.be/gSL75-mJ26o

 

that's probably a previous version since it's dated 2010.

 

Must get this out of my system, how about 1P+K below 6 dp? Gonna check tomorrow.

 

Yes I dojoed and 1P+K hits after 6P+G for a free combo at least with cpu turning options. It nets a nice combo and irc 1dp from PP4P P+K+G, a lot more dmg than 66P+G. After 6 drinks it's Chouwan party.

Throws have different +frames however.

 

Some basic dojoing with 6 P+G -> opponent BT situation (+11f), on 0 dp. It definitely feels there is mindgame going in BT too, something I guess is pretty new to Shun. So I continue where I left.

Against Kage. From standing turners (dojo "move away and turn") I got from 1 P+K on 0 dp but kage falls on stomach so I could only hit P, 43 P+K for 41 dmg, but scorpion kick seems to hit too (mid, 41 dmg) and when "move away and turn" but not in "turn in place". When set "turn/back" or "turn/front", Kage drops on stomach and 1 P+K, 2P, 43 P+K gives 41 dmg.

Setting "crouch and turn" avoids 1 P+K but eats scorpion kick (6 K+G) as expected for 41 dmg with 43 P+K.

6PP always hits but only gives 34 dmg. Also 6P~ string options are a possibility with drink, K; drink P or drink, oushin. Near wall it gives +2f for wall games.

In conclusion, "turn in place" (ie opponent just blocking) gives the best payoff, 50 dmg + 1 dp (I only covered 0 dp dmg though). From defender's perspective avoiding this (ie... ducking?) seems smart thing to do. Second reason is that near wall it gives a wall "lick" after 1 P+K, P, 46PPP and 43 P+K (P), for 59 dmg.

BT throw option indeed seems to work only when opponent neutral (no input) and even a quick dash seems required, but gives the biggest payoff (55 dmg + 6 drinks = boozetastic !!!). So next 6 P+G throw eaten guarantees chouwan (or better just do hcf P+G).

All in all, I think 6 P+G still is there more for changing sides & spacing, since 46 P+G gives 50 dmg. Not bad to know all the low booze options though.