Gameplay quick thoughts

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by Llanfair, May 23, 2001.

  1. Llanfair

    Llanfair Well-Known Member

    Nice vids - bout time we saw some real footage.

    I must admit, VF4 appears to have a very 3tb feel to it. However, it's a very tough call as in both vids there's much Lau play - and you couldn't really pick a more 2 dimensional character. Lau's been played as a m-UpKn monster since VF1 and he's likely not going to change much. The other fall back about seeing Lau in action is that he's not the best example of dodging. He's so rush rush rush and whoever was playing him in the second video was all over this.

    Nice to see the VF4 crouch dash. The Lau player does two quick CDs towards Pai, looking an UpKn floatie. Nice to see UpKnP, m-UpKnPPPd+K work in this game...looks like somewhere between the VF2 and VF3 floating. Interesting to also see the wall, a short one, bounce Pai like high walls do in VF3. The rest of the vids look to some extent, as another guy in another forum put it, like VF3 with a facelift.

    What I got out of the video, and imo this a good thing, is the game seemed to contain much of the VF3tb feel while having a very VF2esque speed. This I think is the change many good VF players will appreciate. The speed and fury of expert VF2 blended with, hopefully, the thinking game of VF3tb will make VF4 very enjoyable and a great part of the VF series.

    cheers,

    <font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>
     
  2. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    I'm with Llanly on this.
    There is a very strong VF2 feel to it..in terms of speed and damage...esp evident in the lau clip.

    I can't help but hear the constant KO annouced in the background...it's like a round can be over REAL QUICK~!



    gfx are impressive...very nice.

    man, the women in this game are HOT~

    <font color=red>~~~SummErs' 'enemy SPODED, enemy DOWN~~~'
     
  3. ghostdog

    ghostdog Well-Known Member

    /versus/images/icons/shocked.gif
    Hey SummErs, how were you able to download the mpegs?
    Did you have to upgrade to QuickTime or anything like that?


    -<font color=white>Ghost</font color=white><font color=blue>DOG</font color=blue>
     
  4. AlexMD

    AlexMD Well-Known Member Content Manager Lei

    "the Lau player does two quick CDs towards Pai"

    Yeah and they're the VF2 CD from crouching variety yes?,I just hope the d/f,d,D/f CD still exists.

    "Interesting to also see the wall, a short one, bounce Pai like high walls do in VF3"
    Yeah and did you notice how non knockdown moves now stun them by knocking their back into the wall as opposed to just pushing them further into it?.

    Very happy to see it hasn't changed too much so far,though not having the realtime models rotating on the character select screen will take some getting used to : P
     
  5. Llanfair

    Llanfair Well-Known Member

    Crouch dashing

    No, the CDs are nothing like the VF2 crouch dash. Crouch dashes in VF2 are really unique to VF2 - looking more like a 'hop' than a dash. I don't know if you've ever seen VF2 taiwan step, but the VF4 CDs are nothing like that it seems. VF1 and VF3 CDs are similar looking in that your character slides forward while crouching.

    The VF4 CDs look like VF3 CDs, although more pronounced than what you see in VF3.

    I'm sure the df,d,DF motion will remain - it's always been there and the motion doesn't interfere with the dodging dd motion. Should be just as intact. However, I would recommend that one practices the df,DF motion - it yields a faster modified move and one with, imo, more control over timing etc. Unfortunately, I have a hard time doing df,DF facing left and usually resort to a df,d,DF type motion to achieve m-Knees, DbPms, K-step etc.

    cheers,

    <font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>
     
  6. AlexMD

    AlexMD Well-Known Member Content Manager Lei

    Re: Crouch dashing

    I meant similar because It looked like the Lau player did a CD from crouching (like you can do in VF 2 but not 3)...
     
  7. uk_kid

    uk_kid Well-Known Member

    Re: Crouch dashing

    i would just like to point out that it is the first time we have witnessed the on screen icons. they don't seem too distracting to me :)
    in fact, the game itself seems to be bucking up a lot in general too, which is great to see.
     
  8. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    GD
    I had someone sent the file to me~

    <font color=red>~~~SummErs' 'enemy SPODED, enemy DOWN~~~'
     
  9. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    My analysis

    First of all, I feel much relieved after watching these clips and perhaps a little disappointed. The game is played almost exactly like VF3 although I did not remember seeing a single dodge done in the game.

    GRAPHICS

    Wow, these clips vindicate the graphics issue for me. Everything looks so good! The character models seem solid; the snow stage is magnificent; the animation is incredible. From what I have seen, VF4 seems definitely superior to DOA3 in terms of graphics.

    ICONS AND HIT LIGHTS

    Hate them. The icon especially. Excuse my language, but it seems like a little green penis wobbling in the middle of nowhere. Look for it when you review the clips; I guarantee you'll get a chuckle. Please Sega, let these icons be customizable (i.e. appear only for beginners who request it on their network card). There are definitely lights/sparks when hit (on counters?). Although they are subtly done, they do seem a bit out of place. I don't like them. I hope the interview with Arcadia is accurate; AM2 seemed to indicate there that there will be no hit-sparks. Hopefully the lights that I saw are also limited to beginners only.

    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    Arcadia: Will there be special effects used this time, when characters are hit for example?

    AM2: We believe special effects detract from the game's overall realism. However, there are effects we can use which will enhance the gameplay, and make the action easier to follow. In Virtua Fighter 4 there will be hit-effects. For example, sweat droplets will fly off your characters, and some players will quiver after a strong attack. As for other special effects, we're doing particle handling for dust and snow which makes them look and react as they would in nature. Mostly, you'll notice how they're interactive; footprints leave trails in the snow, walls can be broken, etc.

    <hr></blockquote>

    DAMAGE

    Is it just me, or do hits seem to take an insane amount of damage in the clips? Shun's SE -> chouwan back fist -> b,d/f+P -> pounce took something like 70% damage!!! Check out the clips and take note of the damage meter. Damn!!! I hope the settings are temporary and shortened to faciliate testing.

    THROWS

    Throws definitely have execution time. Check it out. You can see the arms extending before the throw is executed. I've thought about this for a bit but have decided that the frames-execution throw may not be such a bad thing. For one, it's pretty quick. Two, unlike previous VFs where throws are instaneous, throws in VF4 may have a longer window where the throw is active. For example, let's say someone is fuzzy guarding (i.e. continuously going from a crouching to standing position). If the player is good it may be difficult to run up and throw in VF3. However, if throws have an extended throwing window, as it seems to be the case in VF4, the throw will more easily "catch" the fuzzy guarding player. This way, such types of defenses are weakened against throws. Throws are still instantaneous but have a larger window of execution so players don't have to be so accurate. Thus. far from having throws being weakened the effectiveness of throws is strengthened.

    LEI-FEI

    From what I have seen, I don't like this character. The character seems to be based on canned combos/strings, although if history holds true people will end up using only one or two hits from each of his strings. Lei-Fei seems more like a character you'd find in DOA2. His attacks don't seem to take much damage.

    QUICK GET UPS

    These are interesting. I notice it wasn't a simple hop back onto the feet. Pai, for example, often rolled to the side as soon as she fell and back to her feet. Could such a get up be uraed? Hit out of if anticipated early enough?

    DODGING

    I don't know, I didn't see a single one. I hope AM2 didn't completely nullify the dodge by changing the command input. Please don't make dodges as useless as they are in DOA2...bring back the E button or at least make the dodge extremely quick to execute.

    CROUCH DASHING

    You can now crouch dash from a crouching position! Cool, I guess that's to compensate for the frames-execution throw. However, it definitely seemed as though the speed and distance of the crouch dash has been shortened.

    SPEED

    Hmmm, I don't know about this one. Doesn't seem faster than what it is in VF3, at least high level play in 3.

    These are great clips, and very revealing. If you haven't downloaded them, you should do so ASAP.

    <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by ice-9 on 05/23/01 01:10 PM (server time).</FONT></P>
     
  10. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    I forgot...

    About looking at the low punch. There wasn't an instance where the low punch was blocked low, although a low punch was blocked from crouching position only once. I think the clip is a good indication of how strong the low punch still is; Lau kept on MCing Pai with it. The Lau vs Pai clip is actually quite representative of how concerned I feel about throwing away the E button.

    If a similar fight was to take place in 3, it's very easy to dodge (1 button, 1 frame to execute). Pai could even half step with f+E and E to get close, dodge the low punch and then counter. However, without the E button this seems much more difficult to do in 4. f,f, u,u? Damn, that seems hard and would require four frames at the fastest speed (with no errors) to merely execute. Perhaps the reason why the Pai player kept getting low punched was because she had a relatively tough time dodging, not to even mention the half step and dodge.
     
  11. Llanfair

    Llanfair Well-Known Member

    Re: Crouch dashing

    Oh yeah - I also noticed that and thought of including it with my last post but then I became unsure if I could do that in VF3 or not (doh). Good point absolutely - I also found this to be interesting.

    cheers!

    <font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>
     
  12. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: dodges!!!!

    Ahh, there were dodges in the clips!! Thanks for Summers for pointing it out. After Lau throws Pai (b,f+P+G) he does two dodges. Looks quite seamless and very promising.

    Summers also pointed out how Pai tried to dodge before KOing Shun. Very observant. Note how Pai was attempting to dodge the straight high rising kick from but was too late and got hit out of even though the dodge animation had already started. Again, an indication that 2 frames execution is a big difference from 1 (i.e. u,u versus u+E).

    <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by ice-9 on 05/23/01 01:42 PM (server time).</FONT></P>
     
  13. Llanfair

    Llanfair Well-Known Member

    Re: My analysis

    I went and watched the clips more closely this time.

    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    Hate them. The icon especially.

    <hr></blockquote>

    These only showed up in the Lau vs Lei Fei fight and nowhere else. It's likely a optional thing - I hope as well. I truly think if it's mandatory that you won't notice them after a while.

    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    Although they are subtly done, they do seem a bit out of place. I don't like them.

    <hr></blockquote>

    I dunno Jeff- me thinks you're being a wee bit critical here ;) Until you mentioned them, I didn't even notice they were there and had to look carefully to see them. They are indeed very subtle and, imo, something that will become un-noticed as we start to play.


    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    Is it just me, or do hits seem to take an insane amount of damage in the clips? Shun's SE -> chouwan back fist -> b,d/f+P -> pounce took something like 70% damage!!!

    <hr></blockquote>

    No, it's not just you. The Shun sequence indeed did tremendous damage. I have a feeling that it's damage while under the influence and receiving a pretty good bonus. If you look closely, it's really hard to make out how many drunken points Shun has at that point. One match has already gone by so he's likely drunk a bit (hence the Chouwan Backfist, of course). Does it say x33?? If so, that's a lot of points...wish it was clearer to read.


    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    From what I have seen, I don't like this character. The character seems to be based on canned combos/strings, although if history holds true people will end up using only one or two hits from each of his strings. Lei-Fei seems more like a character you'd find in DOA2.

    <hr></blockquote>

    I gotta agree - I wasn't too impressed either. Very stringy attacks and very segmented - not nearly as fluid as his kata seen in the AOU vid. This may change, as indicated in the AM2 interview that the way characters move is still not complete...who knows. That one string he has seems to go from a sweep into an elbow - could get nasty.


    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    These are interesting. I notice it wasn't a simple hop back onto the feet. Pai, for example, often rolled to the side as soon as she fell and back to her feet. Could such a get up be uraed? Hit out of if anticipated early enough?

    <hr></blockquote>

    I only noticed one of these, and it was Lau in his Lei-Fei match. It was as you said, a quick roll rather than an instant get-up. Who knows if ura will be possible, avoided or exploited with regards to how you get up...


    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    Hmmm, I don't know about this one. Doesn't seem faster than what it is in VF3,

    <hr></blockquote>

    Tough call, really. I thought the speed may be more like VFKids, or even the DC version of VF3tb - then again, it's hard to tell - could be how close the camera is the screen. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif just messin with ya, Jeff ;)

    cheers!




    <font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>
     
  14. Llanfair

    Llanfair Well-Known Member

    Re: dodges!!!!

    I just noticed that no one seems to be moving their characters before the round starts. Maybe you can't anymore - no more starting from a crouching position, If so.

    cheers,

    <font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>
     
  15. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: My analysis

    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    >> Hate them. The icon especially.

    > These only showed up in the Lau vs Lei Fei fight and nowhere else. It's likely a optional thing - I hope as well. I truly think if it's mandatory that you won't notice them after a while.

    <hr></blockquote>

    I guarantee you 6 months within VF4's release in America cries for an FAQ on "Green Penis Waggling Situations" will pop up everywhere. Heck, far from ignoring those icons people will look out for them!!


    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    >> Although they are subtly done, they do seem a bit out of place. I don't like them.

    > I dunno Jeff- me thinks you're being a wee bit critical here ;) Until you mentioned them, I didn't even notice they were there and had to look carefully to see them. They are indeed very subtle and, imo, something that will become un-noticed as we start to play.

    <hr></blockquote>

    Well, we were looking at relatively low quality mpegs, I suspect that's why you didn't notice them. In any case, why put so much effort to creating a beautiful, atmospheric game and have these dumb flashing lights? It's absolutely eerie to see these glowing lights appear at the bottom of characters' feet in the backdrop of the beautiful, particle-flying snow stage. Eerie. Not good.

    On the contrary, I think the more we play the game the more we will notice the lights. Why? Because they seem to indicate an important component of gameplay--counters. We may eventually grow to be depend on them as visual cues for certain situations.


    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    >> Is it just me, or do hits seem to take an insane amount of damage in the clips? Shun's SE -> chouwan back fist -> b,d/f+P -> pounce took something like 70% damage!!!

    > No, it's not just you. The Shun sequence indeed did tremendous damage. I have a feeling that it's damage while under the influence and receiving a pretty good bonus. If you look closely, it's really hard to make out how many drunken points Shun has at that point. One match has already gone by so he's likely drunk a bit (hence the Chouwan Backfist, of course). Does it say x33?? If so, that's a lot of points...wish it was clearer to read.

    <hr></blockquote>

    I can't tell at all, but still, even on 3 the damage wasn't anywhere close to that even with 33 points (more like 55% maybe). Also, check out Pai vs Shun. Two sidekicks and a f,b+P+G was way over half life! I'm just a little concerned because other matches seemed to have normal damage (i.e. similar damage to 3), particularly the second round of Lau vs Pai.


    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    >> These are interesting. I notice it wasn't a simple hop back onto the feet. Pai, for example, often rolled to the side as soon as she fell and back to her feet. Could such a get up be uraed? Hit out of if anticipated early enough?

    > I only noticed one of these, and it was Lau in his Lei-Fei match. It was as you said, a quick roll rather than an instant get-up. Who knows if ura will be possible, avoided or exploited with regards to how you get up...

    <hr></blockquote>

    Oops, my mistake and you're right, I meant Lau. Pai just rolled sideways after landing on the ground.


    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    >> Hmmm, I don't know about this one. Doesn't seem faster than what it is in VF3,

    > Tough call, really. I thought the speed may be more like VFKids, or even the DC version of VF3tb - then again, it's hard to tell - could be how close the camera is the screen. just messin with ya, Jeff ;)

    <hr></blockquote>

    You know, up to this day I still think that DC is no different "speed"-wise from the arcade.

    If both the DC and the arcade moves at 60 frames/second and both games' moves have the same frame statistics, then both games move at the same speed. It's simple math really.

    (1 second / 60 frames) * (frames) = seconds, or the "speed" of the game.

    I will take math any day over "visual guessing." *shrug* The only way someone can convince me both games move differently is by arguing about frame rate component, of which the DC is possibly not a true 60 fps due to interleaving. However, on a monitor or screen capable of 60 fps that shouldn't be a problem.


    Finally, since we are on the topic of VF3 vs VF4, I would like to add some thoughts to the lack of slope in 4. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense not to include varied terrain for the sake of balance.

    What do I mean? Well, it's obvious that certain characters are stronger in certain stages. Kage is much more dangerous on Taka's stage and weaker on Wolf and Lion stage. Lion is better on varied terrain and Aoi absolutely sucks on flat ground. Hence character balance is not really held constant throughout the game and is dependent on the stage picked.

    This kind of imbalance is just as undesirable as imbalances between specific character matchups, such as VF2 Jeffry vs VF2 Pai. Thus in response to this AM2 made all the stages flat in VF4, to achieve better balance across the board. Plus no one really likes to play on varied terrain anyway.

    <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by ice-9 on 05/24/01 03:30 AM (server time).</FONT></P>
     
  16. Llanfair

    Llanfair Well-Known Member

    Re: My analysis

    If both the DC and the arcade moves at 60 frames/second and both games' moves have the same frame statistics, then both games move at the same speed. It's simple math really.

    (1 second / 60 frames) * (frames) = seconds, or the "speed" of the game.

    I will take math any day over "visual guessing." *shrug* The only way someone can convince me both games move differently is by arguing about frame rate component, of which the DC is possibly not a true 60 fps due to interleaving. However, on a monitor or screen capable of 60 fps that shouldn't be a problem.


    Not to rehash this or anything but Jeff it's unfortunate that you have <font color=white>never</font color=white> had a DC running VF3tb directly beside an arcade VF3tb. If you were to see this, then I guarantee you would change your view on the topic.

    As an engineer, I can completely appreciate the tendency to trust the math - however, there are times when qualitative observation and fact replaces quantitative theory.

    cheers,

    <font color=white>Minestrone Jacky</font color=white>
    <font color=orange>Booyah daddy mac! I'm stylin!</font color=orange>
     
  17. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    Re: My analysis

    jeff, don't start.

    vf2 saturn, vf kids (compared to vf2 arcade), and vf3tb DC are all much, much faster than their arcade counterparts. trust those that have far more first hand, comparitive experience on this than you (and you're way, way outnumbered on this, too - the larson cartoon where the midget scientist is trying to convince his colleagues of the "little bang" theory is coming to mind).

    you can blather all you want about math and so on, and even though i don't have a purely technical explanation myself (although i think it has to do with the differences between scan rates and/or the way television displays its video: anyone who has played the PAL version of DC vf3tb will tell you it's even _faster_ - myke/summers/doom? can you offer anything here?), once you sit down and compare, it is blatantly obvious.
     
  18. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: My analysis

    >>Finally, since we are on the topic of VF3 vs VF4, I would like to add some thoughts to the lack of slope in 4. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense not to include varied terrain for the sake of balance.

    >>What do I mean? Well, it's obvious that certain characters are stronger in certain stages. Kage is much more dangerous on Taka's stage and weaker on Wolf and Lion stage. Lion is better on varied terrain and Aoi absolutely sucks on flat ground. Hence character balance is not really held constant throughout the game and is dependent on the stage picked.

    >>This kind of imbalance is just as undesirable as imbalances between specific character matchups, such as VF2 Jeffry vs VF2 Pai. Thus in response to this AM2 made all the stages flat in VF4, to achieve better balance across the board. Plus no one really likes to play on varied terrain anyway.

    While I feel this is certainly a good choice to leave them out of the arcade, I see no reason why they can't be included in the home version as extras. Now I'm not into the whole "Unlocking Secrets the Namco Way," but many average gamers are. We know that when Sega brings this baby home, they're gonna have to include all kinds of goodies. I couldn't think of a better bonus than a bunch of completely different, unique stages. Well, except for Taka, maybe. ;-)

    POOF! Da Dragon Disappears!
     
  19. uk_kid

    uk_kid Well-Known Member

    Re: My analysis

    PAL DCVF3 faster than NTSC DCVF3.....?
     
  20. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: My analysis

    OK, let's approach this from another perspective then.

    When Genki programmed VF3tb, did they program the game to run at 60 fps and then interlaced them to fit a TV? Or did they specifically program the game such a way that it isn't truly 60 fps but only stimulates 60 fps? In other words, how "inherent" is the frame rate?

    If it's the former (i.e. that VF3tb is truly 60 fps) and that it is the TV that changes the speed, wouldn't the speed then be arcade-like when outputed on a monitor or screen capable of 60 fps motion?

    You know, it's funny but everytime I go back to play the arcade version I always can't help but feel how much faster it seems to play, quite the opposite of what's being said here of course.

    But I think what bothers me the most is the lack of silence on this issue from the part of the various Mooks and Technical Manuals dedicated to the Dreamcast version. None of these publications state that the Dreamcast version is "faster" than the arcade version. Why is that? I mean, damn, these are pretty hardcore manuals. They identify every little itty bitty difference between Dreamcast and arcade (even the situations where Kage's slide would accidentally ring out, for example) and they even go so far as to identify what the colors for the Virtua Fighter 3 logo are!! Is this speed thing a hidden issue, non-publicized, undiscovered by the hardcore Japanese audience or simply non-existent?

    Can any Japanese readers who possess such guides please reconfirm? If the DC version is faster than I am surprised so few people seem to realize it (including me). I guess I should get a DC and arcade version running side by side, but even then, even this is not a true test. A better one would be if you have a similar-sized TV and arcade monitor to eliminate visual bias. Extending from that, it would also be interesting to see if a monitor with TV-like scan rates would be different than the TV itself. Is it the output, or is it the way the game was programmed?

    God, blame Manoel for causing my "manuel/manual" hiccup. :)<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by ice-9 on 05/23/01 06:56 PM (server time).</FONT></P>
     

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