How do I know when a down attack is guaranteed?

I don't want to go leaping into the air if there's a chance I'll miss. How can I tell if it's a good idea or not?

 

Re: How do I know when a down attack is guaranteed

There are two styles of down attacks common to all characters - light (standing) and heavy (jumping). Lights are guaranteed after certain throws and mid-air wall hits that don't (and do, actually) result in splats.* Heavies are only guaranteed after the above described mid-air wall hits.

*If you get a wall splat, there are more damaging options available than down attacks.

It's possible to score heavy down attacks if your opponent doesn't TR/QR. There was a safe method to attempt them starting in VF4 that I never really understood. The basic idea was to perform the heavy down with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/ub.gif instead of /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif at the moment a heavy down attack should be executed. If your opponent doesn't recover - the heavy down attack comes out. If they do recover, you get a short hop backwards and are safe.

I need some clarification on the above as I don't know if it's correct.

 

Re: How do I know when a down attack is guaranteed

That's basically right, what I would add though is that I've found that if you decide you want the jumping down attack and you press /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/ub.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif then it may still do the down attack. So what you should do is hold /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/ub.gif and keep pressing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif while you char is still finishing the move that's knocking your opponent down such that the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/ub.gif is buffered in.

 

Re: How do I know when a down attack is guaranteed

With regards to the technique that Plague is talking about...

I sometimes use it when the opponent is in a "Just Recovery" situation. That is, certain knockdowns are hard to tech (AND hard to quickly recover from struggling--which is a fast way to get up without teching).

If you know these situations, and there are a variety of them such as slamming the opponent into the ground or spinning them in the air, then at the moment they could tech roll, you hold /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/ub_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif. If you time it right, your character will pounce if they fail to tech and you will just hop away (which is a safe way of retreating away from a rising attack) if they do tech.

Just remember that there are some situations where an opponent might also be able to struggle really fast to get up and block your pounce attempt. But this is very uncommon in Western VF at the moment. It is rare to find a US player who will struggle to get up super fast. But I will say it is hands down one of the best ways to get up off the ground (struggle so fast that you stand up almost as fast as a tech roll).

I think the technique first became popular in VF4 when Chibita would use the following Lion sequence:
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif --> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif --> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/ub_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif

This technique still works in VF5 and if the opponent fails to Tech, Lion does a good deal of damage with this simple combo. Practice it in training mode while setting the AI to randomly recover.

-Chanchai

 

Re: How do I know when a down attack is guaranteed

Back to the original question...

In general, it's not a good idea to pounce with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif aside from times when your opponent is floating in the air and their back hits the wall.

As Plague mentioned, there are character specific situations where a ground hit such as /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is guaranteed or almost guaranteed. These situations are usually after certain throws, reversals, or slams. There are also situations where ground throws are guaranteed. There's no big list of these, so you'll probably have to let experience guide you on this.

But in the long run, it is better to work on okizeme tactics. That is, how to take advantage of a downed opponent or how to punish them for however they get up. Each character has a few attacks that will beat out rising attacks easily if timed right.

But probably the easiest okizeme against rising attacks is to barely get out of rising attack distance and do an attack while your opponent is recovering from the rising attack. Very easy, very simple, very effective if your opponent does rising attacks.

 

Re: How do I know when a down attack is guaranteed

It's worth noting a few other things, especially at slightly lower levels of play than what chanchai is referring to.

First, each character's heavy down attacks are not the same. Lau is particularly notorious for being able to hit people even if they tech rolled and are standing up, as long as they didn't block.

I believe there's also a few situations where roll direction makes a difference. I've been told after certain throws, for example, if someone rolls backwards, a soft down is guaranteed, but if they roll to the side a heavy down is guaranteed (or maybe vice versa... I forget). I'm not entirely sure what makes that difference, or if, as chanchai said, just struggling extra fast can get you out of it safely.

 

Re: How do I know when a down attack is guaranteed

It is worth noting, but it's best to build habits that will go towards high-level play imo.

What I mean is, if it's a conditional guarantee--it's not really a guarantee and you really shouldn't go for a down attack if the opponent can easily avoid it. Whiffed down attacks leave you wide open and in some cases, you will get combo'd.

I might go for a down attack if I know the opponent isn't going to do anything about it, but it can still be a bad habit. My incentive for going for a non-guaranteed down attack is to encourage my opponent to use an option outside of "staying on the ground."

My opponent has to choose between getting up the proper way and potentially facing my okizeme game, or staying down and taking a down attack. Some people will just take the down attack because it's low damage compared to the potential okizeme.

In Seattle, for now anyways, you can see fast rising if you ever play against Yosuke

 

Re: How do I know when a down attack is guaranteed

Alot (pretty much all) of the guaranteed down attack situations result from wall hits, or knockdown moves that can't be tech'ed (which you can check by going through frame data or test it in dojo).

Another thing that you might do (but this is not guaranteed), is try to guess what the opponent is going to do. For example, people are not likely to tech when they are in health disadvantage after certain combos that gives good okizeme opportunities. If you see this you might try going for big down attack a split moment before they can tech.

 

Re: How do I know when a down attack is guaranteed

You need to watch the way your opponent is falling. If they peel off from a big wall hit, you can get an attack in, or if they're slammed hard to the ground, they have the option to catch it right at the time of impact, but if they don't, you can get them. The more you play, the more you will get a feel for the moves that cause the right situations.

 

Re: How do I know when a down attack is guaranteed

I know that sometimes, on moves that give guaranteed /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif you can sometimes put in /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/ub.gif\ /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif\ /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif because they know the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is "supposed" to come, so they ease up expecting the expected.

i.e. Sarah's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif where you get the guaranteed light down attack, depending on if a heavy pounce can take the round I'll switch it in every so often. I've also seen NORI438(Japanese Sarah) do the same exact thing to take a round with a heavy pounce after that same throw.

 

Re: How do I know when a down attack is guaranteed

Just use the free training set the PC to side roll left then right then backroll, if the down attack hits on all 3 setups its most likely guaranteed.

 

Re: How do I know when a down attack is guaranteed

I think for learning purposes its better not to use heavy down attacks at all, and instead concentrate on okizeme. Theres very few guaranteed heavy down attack situations anyway.

 

Re: How do I know when a down attack is guaranteed

Some down attacks where no floating hits connect are gua heavy down atk. And I forgot to write that the PC has to have max rising speed.

 

Re: How do I know when a down attack is guaranteed

Don't forget the in place quick rise.

Jeffry for example can get away with a lot of stuff with his heavy down attacks against rollers but if the opponent rises in place with fastest timing there's nothing he can do.

 

Re: How do I know when a down attack is guaranteed

Thats true but if you okizeme your opponent sucessfully a few times, he won't quick rise anymore /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif Generally down atks are only good if you know that your opponent wont stand up fast. I use heavy down attacks only against n00bs who like lying on the ground and some slam atks where I'm to lazy to learn the combo or if the combo is hard to do or does less dmg then the heavy down atk.

 

Re: How do I know when a down attack is guaranteed

I don't think I'd ever use a down attack over a combo... even the worst combos tend to be safer if you miss than the horrid recovery on a down attack.

I do "gamble" with them a lot, though... For example, if I land a non-guaranteed ground throw, I often follow with a heavy down. I've paid for it a few times, but most people who can't recover fast enough to avoid the throw won't recover fast enough to avoid the attack either.

Chanchai is totally right, though. You don't want to do any of the things I've talked about (or that most other people have mentioned), until you're familiar enough with the game to see the choice, and never do a down attack as a habit.

 

Re: How do I know when a down attack is guaranteed

Sometimes bounce launchers hit too far away and most normal combos will not connect. In this cause you should simply do a big down attack.

 

Re: How do I know when a down attack is guaranteed

@sorias I was talking about slam combos. Like vanessas slam combos in DS they just sux.

 

Re: How do I know when a down attack is guaranteed

You mean slam combos from the air or what? Those can be teched with exact recovery. Generally only crumple stuns an flops guarantee down attack but theres pretty much always a better combo in those situations too.

 

Re: How do I know when a down attack is guaranteed

Manji's right. Also... a heavy down is 20 damage. It's hard to come up with a combo that does significantly less than that. I'm not familiar with vanessa though, so I'm not sure exactly what moves you're talking about.

Even my above example of "gambling" for the down attack... the reason to bother is to get a counter hit against a rising attack, which actually makes you hit decently hard. If not for that possibility, I'd never use the heavy down... it's way too unsafe when compared to the light down attack without the counter hits.