I think I get it

Okay well I think I get it...this moat thing I think was spurred by some of the posts I made. Basically those posts were just to stir competition. Today we were all sessioning and I realized something, we put in all this effort to train and to get better at the game and to make sure that we are at our best, but in order for me to even excel beyond adam or hiro whom I consider better all around players than I, I have to put in an enormus amount of effort that by this time in VF development I would see smaller jumps in skill for the effort. For instance for Jeff who is an amzing player already for him to unquestionable become a better playet than say Hiro would require endless tweaks in his gameplay, and not in hitting combos etc. because by this time he already has the accuracy and command input correct, now its a matter of developing the advanced techniques needed to beat a player who is thinking on a higher level.

Heres my real breakdown of skill

Beginner:

Learning command input and moves lists

Intermediate:

Learning the guarantees

Expert:

eliminating your oppoenents reaction to one or two best case senarios (moves that they can do to you), developing advanced techniques that block or attack against anything they can do to you.

Thats basically it. Once you hit expert to transition from expert to a better expert is a lengthy process. I dont know if it is worth it really. I think most players have stopped playing recently whichi leads me to the recent posts that i've made.

Basically I think

1. Most of the players on this board who have been playing the game from the first year it came out have mastered 1 & 2.

3. The expert level is the hardest, the reason why I stress so much that NY players are good really isnt about boasting etc. Its because we continue to play so we develop the minor advances in skill that allow expert players to be expert players.

Jeff is an expert player, yet for him to play really compeitively it will require him playing people his level and developing alot of techniques to deal with people at the expert level of skill.

The thing is I dont know if its really worth it. I really believe that we have some good players here in NYC and we have the players that can do 10 to 1 on alot of players who are experts.

I dont think practicing for Moat is really worth it, and I dont think I will be playing much more VF (VF3tb). theres nothing left for me to prove really. I think everyone knows there is a tier of great players, those who have stuck with this community for ages.

Theres only one player whos stuck out as a thorn, really as a result of things Jason Cha said to me early on, not from the person himself, and that person is Jan from Denmark who plays Pai similar to myself. He believes that basic yomi is all you need. Which to some extent I believe, but he doesnt use the advanced techniques etc. If my chart above is correct then the player who has spent more time playing overall developing techniques within that level will be the better player.

So with all this I bid everyone a great Moat! I dont think I will be attending since I dont think the practice involved is well worth it. I dont think anyone else is training as much. I already think we will be better than perhaps one or two players which will provide a challenge.

CrewNYC

My final challenge: $5000 to Jan if he comes plays and wins 51% against myself over three days of playing with all of us here in NYC. (I know this is inciting competition) He's basically the last person I want to play before I close my VF3tb playing days with a winning or losing streak in place.

 

andy, you are a liar, you are an arrogant braggart, and you are a coward. i hope Jan does take this offer. i am confident that you will lose.

so long!

-rich

 

Call me anything, but don't call me a liar, you grumpy piece of shit. What exactly do you think i am lying about? I have never lied to anyone here.

I really hope Jan does take this offer, as i really want to measure myself against such a great player. Frankly I dont buy the stuff Jason had said about him, but we'll see...


CrewNYC

 

Errr, thanks for the compliments, I think.

Personally, I think a lot of my difficulties when I was up in NYC was directly due to the fact that I am terribly, terribly rusty. I mean, VF3tb against the CPU for a week before my trip was pretty much all the VFing that I've done before the time we last met (and a brief two hour session with some guys in Hong Kong); and that was what...last May, year 2000?

I was also very surprised by Adam's Jeffry, which was a big departure from his Akira. I definitely prefer playing against his Akira than his Jeffry as I am not used to dealing with his style of playing Jeffry.

And come on...I wasn't *that* bad. I did win a few and improved my winning percentage markedly by Saturday, although I will readily admit the percentage was a lot lower than what it used to be last year when I played competitively more often.

ice-9

 

Interesting analysis regarding the beginner, Intermediate, and Expert skill levels.

But like Llanfair says, this MOAT is for ultimate bragging rights. Time to put our money where our mouth is. I hope your ass makes it to Canada with the rest of NY-kuns. I really hope its not only me, as the ride up there would be dreadfull.

<font color=red>ORA! ORA! ORA!</font color=red>

<font color=white>adam</font color=white><font color=red>YUKI</font color=red><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by adamYUKI on 03/18/01 02:18 AM (server time).</FONT></P>

 

anyone would be as frustrated and pissed off as i am if they had to put up with your incessant babbling about the apparent magnificent skills of yourself and everyone else in nyc, not to mention revisionist history, here and on irc. give it a fucking rest. you have beaten this dead horse to the point where your gibbering is nothing more than comic relief to many innocent bystanders who have to listen to you.

you have no BALLS. you are being offered on a silver platter to prove yourself (moat), but you are tying to SQUIRM out of it with pointless, rambling blather.

lies? let's see...adam a better player than mason in vf2. that is not opinion: that is a fucking lie. and so much of what you say about the NYC vf'ers and your setup are outright lies as well. this 50% business is total bullshit. if i cared i _would_ make a better presentation/argument but it is not worth the stress and bother.

i hope that the payment for the monitor you gave me (coming soon; i really will not find myself owing anything to you, now or down the line) will be the last i ever come in contact with you. i am so disgusted and fed up with your shit. i'm through with you.

 

Adam, how long is the ride to TO from NYC? When are you leaving?

ice-9

 

okay lets put this to rest.

Theres no way to prove wether Mason was better or Adam was better. All I can say is that Adam won more matches against Mason when Mason came to NYC to play, Eric a fellow here is a witness. Thats all I can say. NY was never on the Internet radar, and why adam was never mentioned on the newsgroups I dont know.

I do know that Mason is not the kind of player to "give" macthes to someone and often had monsterous streaks. Does having more wins in one night say a person is better? No, it just says you had more wins...

A good point however is, how many people do you know from the VF2 era that could stand toe to toe with Mason much less win a few games more than him? Not many. It does illustrate that at the very least they were of the same calibur. Theres no lie in saying this at all. I may have been heated to say Adam was the better player. I can only say what was witnessed.

My blather is NOT pointless. My argument above is comepletely justified. I present a good way to breakdown players.

Heres a simple example rich:

The NY players have played everyone in Canada,

according to the reports we stood toe to toe (myself not present) with Jo Shun and toward the end of the session won more that he, on their playing field. (Arcade tb, and unfamiliar sticks)

NYG2: Basically represented the rest of the country. same sort of results, I think you know where im going.

We prove it with wins. I write these posts to give people the flame to compete. Thats it. Moat is just that Moat, (it's a tournament) if Adam wants the bragging rites then Moat will surely give it to him if he wins. Like i said in my post above, I was writing to say I have nothing left to prove. I would like to play Jan, but thats about it.

CrewNYC

 

sigh. not quite, through, i guess.

two trips to TO, a few hours. second time - jo, sick with the flu and generally pissed off at being there (so i have been told). wonderful measuring stick ya got there. way to take something and ruuuunnn with it.

ahhh yes, nyg2. a loud, dark room with the shittiest fucking sticks i have ever had the misfortune of using. i won't make any excuses for my own poor performance, but honestly that setup was utter, foul SHIT, and i don't see how ANYONE (other than those used to the sticks - that being you and the nyc players) could have expected themselves to be at anywhere NEAR % 100 using them.

and what about nyg1? if i may resort to lowering myself to your level, i wiped the floor with all of your asses in severe way at that one, yet you conveniently forget it...

> All I can say is that Adam won more matches against Mason when Mason came to NYC to play, Eric a fellow here is a witness.

ah, so according to your twisted, fucked up arrogant logic, that one visit determined (and i quote from an irc log) that "adam was better than mason"? get a fucking brain, andy.

and you weren't on the net radar then because you never involved yourselves. it was your _own_ goddamn responsibility, no one else's. but you've done a real nice job of shitting all over the current radar.

> I was writing to say I have nothing left to prove.

that's bullshit. you have all of your talk to prove. but you SQUIRM away from it.

 

Flu pissed off for not being there whatever. If you look at your below comments about the sticks the NYC players do NOT play tb and definately were not accustomed to the sticks, if not having good sticks = not being at 100% I think it was a pretty even balance.

Okay near 100%???? They were DC sticks for crying out loud. Other than you since you have an excuse for it, everyone in that room was accustomed to playing on those sticks. So yes everyone was at 100% of their skill.

Hello does more wins mean you are a better player? To us I think thats what it means, one day or not. I mean towards the end of VF a player could tell whether or not he could consistently beat another player, that was the nature of VF2, Mason would have to have practiced or gotten accustomed to Adam to overcome him, but at the point he played Adam had a greater skill level.

1 point

Mason Drove to NYC at the invitation of another guy in NY who was on the Internet in a limited fashion.

2nd Point

Mason had a good long conversation with Adam going back to his car acknowledging him as an amazing player.

If Adam won more that one night, it says just that he was able to best Mason consistently for a few hours. Mason had the exact same opportunity to adjust to Adam.

About NYG1, of course I will give credit where credit is due, you did extremely well at NYG1 I remember. At that point you were still very high up there. All the points I've made in all these "senseless" posts lead to a single point:

since NYG1 how much hahve you played competitively. All I can say is we are all the same calubur players, but since we play more the logic is we have gotten better thats it.

Its been proven to a moot point since NYG1. MoaT is a great tournament,but like I said I would train, and I am expecting to playing Akira which will require that I train more, I dont think I want too since I am not in tournament mode.

All my PAST talk has been proven. None of it (other than the European players thing) hasn't been.

CrewNYC

 

Hiya Ice!

The ride is 9-10 hours from NYC. If you are gonna be in NYC, around that time, we should head up together!

Im gonna head up Friday morning (11-12 ish).


<font color=red>ORA! ORA! ORA!</font color=red>

<font color=white>adam</font color=white><font color=red>YUKI</font color=red><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by adamYUKI on 03/18/01 03:18 PM (server time).</FONT></P>

 

Andy,

Knowing the NYC's crew personally, and having been to a few events, I agree with some your points. But if you want to convince someone or do not want to be labeled as a liar, you need to write and construct your argument better.

>My blather is NOT pointless. My argument above is comepletely justified. I present a good way to breakdown players.

Anyone who has taken a basic writing 101 will see there's something wrong with this. You do not need to tell us how valid your point is. We are interested in WHY your point is valid.

And that's where your argument/bragging is weak at best; because you either omit or do not present concrete examples to back up your point.

For example, you keep saying that the NYC crew dominated at NYG2. OK...the point is brought up, but where's the proof? I actually do agree with you, but Rich doesn't, obviously. So instead of being defensive and telling us your feelings, you may be better off presenting us with the concrete prrof. Ask ChanChai to ship out the NYG2 tapes to you, and you can count the number of wins/losses for the majority of NYG2 matches.

...and by the way, it's kinda misleading to group everyone in NYC as "NYCrew". In my opinion, there's a HUGE gap among NYC's players. I can admit my losses to Adam, but I'm not losing to the entire NYCrew, am I?

>according to the reports we stood toe to toe (myself not present) with Jo Shun and toward the end of the session won more that he, on their playing field.

That's Adam and Nelson who stood toe to toe, not the entire NYCrew.

>NYG2: Basically represented the rest of the country.

...and how can you say this? I'm sure that people on the west coast, or those missing big names (Sumeragi, MNAoi, Doug, etc.), sure have something to say about that.

Bragging is an exaggeration on what is already true. So unless you prove your point to be true first, Rich has the every right to call you a liar. Whether that's true or not, it's up to you to prove/disprove.

 

Okay Shota I agree with you the point is I didnt want to have to put example 1. 2. 3. exactly since its rather blatant.

NYG2: represented the current group of US players that could play with us competitively. There really are no West Coast players that at least someone from NY has played. Adam and I went to E3 I think about three years ago. They had already stopped playing, and we played them suffice to say beating every single one of them much more than say 2:1. Sumeragi was the only really compeitive player there.

Suffice to say no one in the West Coast could compete at this point. Its been three years and no one still plays or is really interested in competing.

"And that's where your argument/bragging is weak at best; because you either omit or do not present concrete examples to back up your point.

For example, you keep saying that the NYC crew dominated at NYG2. OK...the point is brought up, but where's the proof? I actually do agree with you, but Rich doesn't, obviously. So instead of being defensive and telling us your feelings, you may be better off presenting us with the concrete prrof. Ask ChanChai to ship out the NYG2 tapes to you, and you can count the number of wins/losses for the majority of NYG2 matches."

Actually I dont think he disagrees with my NYG2 point. We all did quite well there.

Why dont I reverse this:

You know the members of the NY crew, can you name a single player out there in the US and Canada that can beat us as a team?

I dont think so.

(In other words you may lose to Adam, Nelson, and Hiro and beat me) but thats 3/4 losses.

Nevermind all the bragging....

My point in the original post was player breakdown. I think its rather true. Name every good player in the US. Why do you think they lose to us? is it beaceu they have some kind of weakness at the intermediate level? No. At the expert level they lack practice, they lack the mental accuracy, and they lack some of the techniques developed over time. LIke Jeff put it, before playing us he played the CPU for a week. Theres only so much you can do with a CPU. A CPU never compares to real people playing the game. If Jef played with us for the last two years or for that matter the boston group (rich Shang etc.) would he be a monster? I definately think so.

CrewNYC


CrewNYC

 

> So yes everyone was at 100% of their skill.

christ...you ARE insane. you have no right, no ability to speak for everyone. this is a gross assumption, a statement based on no evidence. basically a lie.
shota, chan, myself, and both minnesota people voiced their problems with the sticks, either by posting on the board or in conversation. and i would have a hard time believing if they were the only ones having trouble with the sticks. they were utter garbage; horrfically unlevel playing field.

> All my PAST talk has been proven.

no, it hasn't. never once have you presented any hard evidence, any third parties to back up your statements. you don't prove anything by making unverifyable statements.

 

have i played competitively since? yes. more than a few times. there were two trips to toronto which were very fun (one which you and your crew totally bailed out of), and a few small get-togethers here and there.

but here is something you MUST realize, you twit: myself and others do NOT have to play you and the better VF'ers in NYC to be recognized as "competitive", or even just good, or even as a superior player. the NYC scene is NOT the watermark by which all other VF'ers are judged (there isn't any one mark at all), as much as you would like to believe.

unlike you i do not have anything to prove. i have travelled more, played more people, and since you care so much about it it - played better against out of towners than you _ever will_. i have contributed more to the community, through informational posts, the archive, guides, and so on than you _ever will_ (30mb of shitty movies which are unlinked, totally hidden, and on a server which you are not paying for is NOT contributing). i am comfortable in the fact that i will be remembered those contributions (even the caustic posts), and for how i played in person, not as some lying, clueless gibbering idiot who lets his mouth run, and runs off cowardly when presented with an opportunity to back his own claims up.

 

>I didnt want to have to put example 1. 2. 3. exactly since its rather blatant.

You already made a blatant statement. You might as well use blatant examples, as well as concrete ones, at this point.

>You know the members of the NY crew, can you name a single player out there in the US and Canada that can beat us as a team?

I can, or have a fair chance, if it is a one-shot match deal. If you want to take the results after 3 days, well, it's not fair. I have a high respect for Adam, Nelson and Hiro, and at my level, I don't think I can win them out in mid- to long-term.

>Name every good player in the US. Why do you think they lose to us?

Yes, I can see them losing to Adam, Nelson or Hiro, but not to you, Andy. Again I said there's a HUGE gap among the NYC players.

>Theres only so much you can do with a CPU. A CPU never compares to real people playing the game.

True, I cannot agree more. However, having a human competition does not automatically improve your game. Why do you think, after 4 years of play, one is better than the other in the same group?

If you think you have reached the expert level, please do not stop playing the game. It is, in fact, precisely why you should keep on playing the game. Now that you have the game mechanics and commands down, i.e. the necessary equipments for the game, your brain/thinking will be the limit for your competitiveness (just like you said).

Perhaps this is why I like playing VF over other fighting games. To me, it is not as hard to acquire the necessary equipment in VF. In many 2D games, my command input will usually be the limiting factor.

 

Okay Rich last post and this TIME I will back it up.

NYG AND NYG2 controls: They were all DC sticks, we had um like 10-15 sticks at BOTH gatherings. If you could not find the right stick dont even bother playing. If you were not at 100% it was NOT due to the conrtols. I did not hear anyone else complain. There were TONS of sticks all DC sticks.

The same has been true for Chicago gatherings etc. Everyone had their own sticks, we brought ours, others (like Shota I believe) had thier modified stick that they liked there.

Lies you say? Let me back it up:

Since NYG1 heres a breakdown of people we've played:

You: I trounced you at NYG2
Emil: I beat him with Pai and Jacky (recent visits)
Jeff: I beat him with Jacky/Jeffery (recent visits)
Llanfair/GE/Ghram: At chicago I beat them all with pai maybe 8 to 1
Harold: Beat him about 2:1 or 3:1 with pai at Chicago gathering, 2:1 when he played sarah at NYG
Kruza: Beat him during chicago, NYG, NYG2
The rest of the Chicago gang: Ed 1:1 at chicago gathering
Sumeragi: 1:1 at E3 1.5:1 (havent played since NYG1)
Shang Yang: 5:1 at NYG, I made it a point to beat Shang with Pai, Jacky and just about anyone I wanted to pick. In fact I beat him with a scrubby lau pretty badly, which he mocked since I really didnt play to well but still won.
Peter: Beat him with pai/jacky NYG, NYG2 and a few visits to NYC.
Omaha Jeffery, Chicago 5:1 or more, NYG2 5:1
Shota: 3:1 against me, I've played shota at Chicago gatheing maybe 10-15 times losing almost all except the tournament play. Which our team won BTW. I beat a whole team 9 rounds staright.

People were all there their were tons of witnesses. Kruza, Omaha Jeff, Emil, they all watched me play since Chicago, NYG1, and NYG2 and rip through people and are witnesses.

Bragging Bragging Bragging....

Hows that for a win cycle?

You wanted me to write all that?

The proof is in the wins.

Everyone is that chart above aside maybe YOU has been beat by adam on an avg. of 10:1, and maybe jeff hasnt lost 10 yet. But everyone else has. What does that say to you....

10:1

YOU are the only person responding saying this is gibberish. Basically we've alrady proven it as a group. Now were saying for people to get better they need to play consistently ,and not with us particularly. But on a regular basis.

Anyhow point proven.

CrewNYC

 

Sigh Shota....I had a discussion with adam about this...I dont play you, I;ve never sat down and sessioned with you....Sadly, when 3/4 NY'er can beat you out mid to long term and you dont think I can....sigh...well its not worth mentioning...

As far as this gap....it basically the four of us...

Nelson and I have about the same winning percentages against a round group of players, including, Emil, Ice-9, Peter etc..

Why wouldnt you think I can win as much....numberically I already have...The NYG2 tapes prove it. Even at Chicago gathering you do realize if you ask Omaha Jeff or Kruza...who won A TON...I had like 14 win game streaks at CHICAGO gathering...you were the only player not playing in that group....

Give me a day to sit down with you calmly and you will see whether I deserve to be playing with the other 3.

I'm more vocal too, maybe thats why you seem to think so. I say things like "I DID THAT" and "BLAH BLAH headjerk" but I still win....it doesnt take from that.

CrewNYC

 

"Yes, I can see them losing to Adam, Nelson or Hiro, but not to you, Andy. Again I said there's a HUGE gap among the NYC players. "
See you cant see them losing to me since I have not beaten you alot.

Let me be more specific Shota, everyone (expect Jo-Shun) that the three players above have played I won against, and have streaked against.

Is that more specific?

 

I don't know Andy...you are making some broad statements here. Selective bias?

I'm not sure I can agree that you "beat" me with your Jacky or Pai, even though you didn't play your Pai much. I most definitely did not come away with the impression that I was dominated (at least on Saturday). But I wasn't counting wins or losses.

But I do remember that in the last two times I played with Nelson, for example, the first time I didn't lose a single match to Nelson, which pumped Nelson up for the next meeting, where he may have had a slight edge on me in terms of numbers of wins.

In any case, maybe it's time for me to make a trip up to New York to settle things, heh heh. =)

ice-9