Livening Up Online Play - Please EVERYONE Read!

Many people here at VFDC know my thoughts on this, but I'm going to keep saying it until something changes.

Ever since rank matches died down, sheesh, two years ago now, I keep seeing over and over comments like, "great 2 hour session we had" or "man I wish I didn't have to wait 25 minutes for someone to join my session."

Sega gave us an arcade type playing atmosphere and no one EVER uses it. When I say arcade type playing, I mean RANKING MATCH! I realize that many people are maybe younger and didn't get a chance to experience arcade play and furthermore appreciate it.

Let's put it this way, if all of us lived in Japan or at least had the same arcade atmosphere that Japan has, none of us would play without our card, meaning we would all be playing ranking matches, and not against the same person over and over and over and over.

This is what I keep stressing upon, rank matches force you to play better, and guess what, learn more! When something is on the line, when you are forced to bring your "A" game, when you care about your rank and percentage, you step it up - simple as that!

This brings another thing to mind, I think we Americans care too much about our percentages. I only say this from some experience I've had and communication with other members. VF's ranking system is designed pretty damn well. What I mean is that your percentage doesn't hold a candle to your rank name. You'll see all kinds of Japanese players, and damn good ones, with 60% or less. This means that they are playing a lot of good players.

Really I didn't want to bring the percentage and rank name into this post, because I don't want people to be focused on it and also not think that I am focused on it. The entire point of this post is to get people to play, play more often, play more of a variety, stop playing the same person for hours on end, and all of us ending up being happy because there will be a lot of activity going on in the ranking lobby.

Don't get me wrong, I like player match, but once Sega added the rematch option all was lost. This is why people end up playing the same person for far too many matches. THIS WON'T MAKE YOU BETTER IN THE LONG RUN! It will only make you aware of a few instances and some character's advantages / disadvantages, but once you play someone else who uses the same character and uses them differently, you're screwed!

I can't stress enough about that last sentence! It's the truth! Let's do something about it!

Quite honestly player match and VF5's lobby system is a huge contributor to the lack of players and/or lack of interest. The reason is because even though many people might be online at the same time, who the hell knows when one of them will be available to play next. Resorting to match requests is tedious and unreliable. Think of it this way, if 10 players are online for 2 hours and all of them are playing player match, you'll only probably be able to play two or three of them. However if all 10 players were playing ranking match, your odds of getting in a match is nearly 100% with all 10 players.

For some this might not even be a debate of player match versus rank match. The grievance comes from the fact that there are not enough people online or playing this game anymore. All of that can be solved in my opinion with rank matches.

I know people wonder why Japanese are so much better at fighting games (or games in general) than we are. This post is a testament to why! It's not that we play less, it's that's they play a HUGE variety of players. Just think, instead of playing a few people during the week for an hour or two sessions, imagine playing a lot of people one or two matches at a time. Eventually nothing will surprise you, which is what needs to happen to get better. Changing gears, so to speak, is a must! Monotony, repetition, and complacency will get everyone nowhere!

Rodney I gotta believe you agree with at least some of what I'm saying. Denkai I know you do too. I don't want to generalize but it's interesting that some of the best players online truly know and appreciate what the arcade scene used to be like. Rodney, Adam, Air Jacky, myself - we were all a part of it! Let me say this - nothing compares to playing this game in the arcade in Japan! Nothing! But guess what, there is something that's as close as it's gonna get... RANKING MATCH[/size]!

 

So we should jump back on Ranked? I dont mind, dont know how long it will last Tho"

 

Online isn't the ideal place to get better.

When I want to play online I want to play against people with a good connection. I'd rather play the same 4 or 5 people than 20 people with horrible connections. Regardless of how different they play.

Nice idea though. I can see how it would benefit people who have a lot of people in their general area who play online.

 

I agree that online isn't the best way to get better, but unfortunately unless we're Japan, it's all we have. =(

 

Happy birthday! Well, I thought this might get asked, and I appreciate it. For now, since we all have busy lives and scattered times to play, maybe the weekends would be a good time to start hosting. We'll know soon if it doesn't work. This has to be a collective effort, and I know it won't be an easy one.

 

Why does it even matter even more, if Final Showdown really is coming out like people say it is then there's no need to push people to play VF5. VF5 is dead, let it be dead. Enjoy Starcraft 2 that's coming out fairly soon or Street fighter 4 or Tekken 6 or whatever you old guys play these days, and when final showdown is near release date then would be a good time to start playing VF5 again just to prep. yourself for the big game. What do you think of that?

 

We still play with the same group/people no matter RANK or PLAYER match, aren't we? However, PLAYER makes it easy to continue by pressing one start button without the boring loading time, which is a big reason I love PLAYER match.^^

 

It might be off from this topic, but I really wish SEGA changes rank system in FS. I mean, at least each characters have different rank like tekken. Many people here know that I love to use many characters, so I really wish it'll happen...

I think SEGA needs to change player match system too. I want them to make lobby system like DOA or tekken. What I want is, at least 4 players can join into one session, and can watch other players matches like DOA or tekken, and let players change their character every single time the matches started. This might be just me, but I easily get bored with using only one character, so if SEGA makes this system, I don't have to leave the session and invite people over and over...


BTW, I'd love to play ranked match if every characters have different rank like I just said. Then I'll definitely learn something by using new character, plus can make strategies for that chara too.

Great post Jesse!! I agree with you 100%!

 

Cool post Jesse. I don't think Rank is the solution to be honest. The solution is simply getting everyone to play each other on a given day and not just fixate on playing one person for hours on end.

Shakedown did that. I know it wasn't perfect but people were actually showing up and getting it in at one point which was its
whole purpose. This year we had it kickin for almost 2 months until my XBOX RROD and people lost all interest. I guess the combination of my lack of promotion and the demise of the scene in general slayed it.

What I'm getting at isn't that we should do another shakedown (though I'd love too) it's that you're going to be hard pressed to find people to do this with any regularity at this point.

I'm down, although I've written off VF for a while but that's only because it was a ghost town by the time I got my XBOX back.

 

I feel your pain Jesse. But when you talk Arcade scene those guys aint the only ones who know it all to well. Ranking Battles in VF5 is dead and meaningless. Your right we are not the japanese and we will never be as good as them on vf5. Who now maybe in vf5fs the coding may be even better to get a decent game overseas and actually learn something.Contrary to what you may believe about playing the same person over and over. You can still level up regardless. In short your cries are falling on deaf ears. VF5 is played out and only a few of us are still holding on. just enjoy it while you can until the next game drops.

Shit even TWP Shoutbox shakedown had it popping for a couple of Nights with lots of players.

 

Well said and the only thing that stop player matches is if the players feel like ending it on their own and all it takes is a press of a button. Rank is cool only when there are alot of people playing all at once but overall player matches rule hands down.

 

I agree with Jesse and wish ranking matches were not the thing of the past, but unfortunately until Sega gives us the ability to hide win / loss percentage ranking matches will never have that boom like player match does.

The reason a lot of people stopped playing rank is because they do not want to mess up there high percentage win rate. They are more worried about looking like they are strong through high win percentage or having a special high rank than actually being strong. A lot of players just cower in the background selecting only players they know they can beat or they wait around hoping they can catch one of the many players who struggle to get past Master Rank. The moment they get past it they are there to knock'em back down and hopefully knock themselves up. Eventually when they get to those really high ranks where you have no choice but to play other's with the same rank or very similar ranks they all just quit, because they knew what that meant. All those 80+ percentile win rates were going to take a huge dip.

It's sad, but it's the truth! If I really cared about ranking match win rate I would have kept my Konjou Akira gamertag active. Unlike my Rodnutz profile which is sitting at like 70% my Konjou account was about 84%. Maybe I should reactivate it with the 1 year live subscription card I'm sitting on?

Good attempt yet again Jesse, but I don't think it will change things. If it does then I'll be there.

 

I like hearing the input. While I agree with many things all of you have said, I hope you don't miss the point. If people like player match, I won't argue, because it is definitely a convenient way to play. A huge point I was trying to get across is to be careful not to fall stagnant by playing the same person over and over for hours on end. We might not have the scene that Japan has but we can attempt to make it a better one by spreading the love, er, matches, around to a variety of people. I know it can be tempting or desirable to keep pressing rematch, especially if they are heated matches, but when they're not, quit playing after 5 to 10 and host/look for a different player.

Rodney you are 100% correct about people caring way too much about their percentage. It doesn't mean jack shit, but unfortunetly many people won't change their way of thinking on that. Looking back it was pretty pathetic. Like you said people would hunt for certain players thinking they could win, or even worse, holy shit did players disappear once they became Master rank. Hello!!! Master isn't even close to the best rank so why would people quit playing in fear of losing it??? I can understand just a little in regards that it was very difficult to obtain Master, but so what. If rank match was popular when the game first came out why can't it be now? What changed?

If there is one thing I want people to understand about this post, it's not that I am a die-hard rank match freak, it's what I believe comes about by playing rank matches. It's inevitable, YOU WILL PLAY BETTER AND GET BETTER! Without a doubt!

I still like to point out the usage of cards in Japan. Anytime you use one you are playing a rank match. No one can hide, and why the hell would you not use your card? It makes me wonder if the same people that ruin the online rank match experience, would they just sit home instead of going to the arcade to play in fear of losing? Pathetic!

I'll ask one last time. Can anyone disagree with the belief that rank matches force you to play better and learn more?

 

I agree that it makes you better to play ranked because you adapt to many situations randomly against many foes of all kind play characters a wide variety of different ways. It's a great experience when there are alot of people ranking matches. Caring about ranking your position is the downside that comes from playing ranked matches and it kills the fun of playing it often. If people can just play for the sake of playing the game like they should, they will rank up quickly eventually

Great topic though. Offline is always the best option but not everyone has that option for many reasons. But if offline isn't always an option the lag has to be reduced dramatically to even come close to true offline play but it will never equal how good true offline play is.

 

Re: Livening Up Online Play - Please EVERYONE Read

Its not just a matter of playing ranked or unranked matches that will save online play. If VF5FS comes to console, there will be mad activity online for maybe a year, no more than 18mos. Then it will be a ghost town again. One of the major reasons is all of the other great games that come out that have online play as well. There are only so many gamers. There are more online games released than there are games. Something like VF5FS is bound to see low traffic after the first year. And you'll be right back where you started from, small community, not much happening online for a superior game.

I've said this so many times b4. Now that you guys have experienced online VF for a few years maybe you'll see it my way.

I think VF would be better off with true AI opponents than with online option. (not the AI we have now) But an AI that exploits different styles, all of the move options for a character, an AI that exploits stage size, and walls. An AI that learns (not an AI that reads your moves ). We should have
an AI in VF like the chess games have. One that lets the user pick the style and difficulty that he wants to fight against, from novice to unbeatable.

Advantages of AI over Online play:

1) There is no lag!
2) They are always available at any time
3) depending on setting, they will be better than most human
opponents you will ever find online
4) AI's have the potential to have more diverse styles than
any you might meet online
5) There are AIs for every character in the game
(online you tend to bump into the same characters)
6) They are not just focused on a cheap win
7) You can adjust the diffculty to beyond or beneath your
skil set
8) AIs won't dump VF for the next fad game, they don't
retire from playing the game

I made this argument before VF had the online option, and most of you cats thought I was crazy. Now that you see online is not the savior of VF, maybe you'll at least think about what I'm saying.

I know some of the wish lists for VF5FS is better online, to improve the lobby, lag, rematch, etc, but I think for the real hard core VFer a better wishlist for VF5FS, would be to ask SEGA for a better class of AI. I'm not saying to take out online, but if Sega focuses more on a higher class AI(more capable,diverse, scaleable, adaptable), then you'll always be able to play high quality games no matter how many people are online or not online, or not online when you're online etc.


Actually, for those of you who don't believe, it doesn't matter
much, because, the video game publishers have realized that there are more games online than there are players to play, so the trend is to start putting AI online when there are not enough players. And making the AI good enough to Pass for beginner to intermediate players.

Since we'll all end up playing AI anyway, I'd rather play a good AI offline with no lag (no charge) than pay extra to be online playing an AI.

I consider myself a diehard VF fan. TBH I'd rather play a kick ass class of AIs offline than scrubs(that I probably don't know)[/size] online with mediocre connections. And high quality AI offline will actually improve your game, so that you'll be good enough to actually be able to compete offline against real players.

Playing online against mediocre to poor players, with lag, doesn't prepare you for the real deal. However playing offline
against true kick ass AI's can prepare you for the real deal

Think about it for a moment folks, if we were able to capture the complete styles and play mannerisms of the best players in the world in the form of AIs, and then make those AIs adaptable, scaleable, and able to learn. After playing against those AIs it would improve whatever online play you would have.

You want to liven up online play for the future VF5FS online, ask Sega for a better class of AIs, world class AIs. That would improve the offline scene and online scene.

I know there are h8ters and doubters out there, but before you totally dismiss might point, just objectively think about it for a minute or two

 

Re: Livening Up Online Play - Please EVERYONE Read

I completely disagree.

 

Re: Livening Up Online Play - Please EVERYONE Read

Master Po, I like you idea in principle,

But the reality of the present situation is that the kind of AI you are talking about is not something that Sega can come up easily. AI that learns your weakness and adapt? easy AM2, why dont you hurry the fuck up and give it to us already! and, while you're there, please solve world hunger and find a cure for cancer, lazy fuckers of AM2.
And please, AM2, I want Akira to be my best friend and learn what I like best, make him talk to me like milo, cause real friends are a pain in the ass and when they come around I have to make tea and coffee and I cant be fucked.

 

On a serious note, I disagree that ranked is better.

The reason I say so is because it takes me forever to learn stuff or unlearn bad habits. I sometimes play long sessions with players better than me and only manage to adpat after 10 games or so. ranked would not give me that opportunity I think. Say im 7dan, why would a master play me? hes got nothing to gain. I would imagine as soon as my 7dan akira gets on ranked, I would be challenged by a 6dan kage or wolf or shun or lei or eileen or... the list goes on and on.

also, rank should be tied to a specific character, so that when you try new characters dont get punished for it.

One thing I like about ranked is that once the match is over you can save the replay without worrying about the other player waiting.

 

Re: Livening Up Online Play - Please EVERYONE Read

Matteo,

You're partially right. The kind of AI that I'm talking about is hard to program. And probably not in Sega's repetoire at the moment But real artificial intelligence just happens to be the kind of programming I do in real life. So I know what the state of the art is. Actually it would be easier for Sega to add some rendition of the AI I'm talking about than it would be to fix online lag Having the goal of a higher and higher quality of AI extends the life of the VF franchise more than adding more online features. The online scene is not a ghost town because the VF lobby is so poor It has more to do with the release of:

Red Redemption
Lost Planet 2
Call of Duty Expansion packs
Transformers Fight for Cybertron, etc

And by the time people get done with these flings, they forget all about VF, and hence online ghost town. So if the only thing you got is VF online, you stop playin it too With
High quality AI, there's always a VF to go back to regardless of the online scene.

B.T.W I do think it would be kind-a kewl to talk to Akira's AI, not talk, but maybe one or two text messages