Making Pai's mid kick effective

After being soundly beaten by kage over the last few months and seeing how kage players can abuse his (plus his many other mid kicks) and get away with it. Is there any way of using pais as well as other characters, if so in what situation?


some other questions:

1. Why does gohs mid kick beat pais ?

2. Are kage's mid kicks semi-cirular or is it just my bad evading?

 

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After being soundly beaten by kage over the last few months and seeing how kage players can abuse his (plus his many other mid kicks) and get away with it. Is there any way of using pais as well as other characters, if so in what situation?

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In many situations. Pai's sidekick is an excellent move to close the gap between players and very good at setting up flowcharts. I'm not a huge fan of the canned punch but I use it from time to time - it works best when fully delayed.

Look at the stats for Pai's sidekick: -5/0/+8. It doesn't get much better than that. These are the exact stats as Kage's sidekick, btw. When blocked, you're pretty safe, out of throw range, and should employ a defensive technique - personally, I like to linney after blocked sidekicks as I find it gets me away from the opponent just enough to set up another series of attacks, etc. On MC you can technically throw but you have to dash in for this and I personally like the mind games associated with a sidekick stagger. That's pretty much it - it's a gap filler and a poker to set up more. Anyone else with comments?

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1. Why does gohs mid kick beat pais ?


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I'm not sure what you mean here. Pai's single swallow executes in 13 frames. Goh's midkick (K), has an execution of 16 frames. Under neutral circumstances, the swallow kick will always win. What situations are you thinking of?

Hope this helps.

<font color="yellow">.cheers.</font>

 

Thanks for the help LF, the situation is from netural but goh mid kick even though slower beats pai's swallow kick.

p.s linney = linear move?

 

a linney is a back dash interupted by an E-CD. I think the term came out of Florida.

GE

 

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Thanks for the help LF, the situation is from netural but goh mid kick even though slower beats pai's swallow kick.

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^___^ you crack me up... u are refering to the beginning of the match right? who knows, mabye it's distance issues, mabye it's your execution. but i wouldnt go around saying that pai's swallow kick losses to goh's df+k.

why dont you run some tests through training mode. i think the questions should be 1] why does goh suck against pai? 2] why cant goh use sabakis vs pai's nitaku game? 3] why is goh's shlrm useless against all of pai's mids after b,df+p? 4] why cant goh's b,f+k sabaki pai's swallow kick? 6] why does the list go on? /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif LOL

Btw, you can also use pai's mid kick pretty strong against blocked low Ps, they are -4 so you would get a lovely stagger if they try another low P or a lovely push if they try another attack... just use it for distance measures mostly since alot of of pai's other long distance options are less safe.. (minus that horridly unfair top tier swallow kick ^^) - as lainfair stated, her mid kick is good because it keeps you out of throw range if you distance it right.

 

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BK__ said:
4] why cant goh's b,f+k sabaki pai's swallow kick?

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her swallow kick is actually a "mid-double" kick, meaning it can't be sabaki'd by normal mid-kick sabakis. this is why brad can't reverse it as well. hella annoying. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Which also explains 2] why cant goh use sabakis vs pai's nitaku game? if there's her uf+K (M, p.s) involved.

 

kage's normal d/f+k is linear

Kage's k+g side kick is not semi circular.

 

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SummAh said:
Kage's k+g side kick is semi circular.

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fixt 4 u

 

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why dont you run some tests through training mode. i think the questions should be 1] why does goh suck against pai? 2] why cant goh use sabakis vs pai's nitaku game? 3] why is goh's shlrm useless against all of pai's mids after b,df+p? 4] why cant goh's b,f+k sabaki pai's swallow kick? 6] why does the list go on?

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I was just asking these same questions to myself last week.

1. Not much needed to elaborate here.
2. Goh's MP sabaki is useless cuz no real Pai player would do her chop because her and swallow kick are faster and do more damage. Goh's Tsumaki doesn't guarantee damage. His LPC timing is funky. Back kick? See #4
3.Not only is shlrm useless, so is his sidestep leg swipe (/ +) unless she does her chop, but why would she do that?/versus/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
4.Pai's Swallow kick just owns Goh. Even if blocked she still has time to do a lp to beat 90% of what Goh can follow up with./versus/images/graemlins/mad.gif
5. Did you skip 5 on purpose? heh heh
6. I hope the rumors of Goh beefed up for FT are true. /versus/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

lol

SORRY! N THANKS LOVE!~

 

lol, shag, of course i had all of those answers in mind that's what drives me crazy^^!!

btw, on your no.3, even pai's f+p chop will beat goh's u/d+p+k after b,df+p -- the only thing you can even evade at that point is rising palms with is also not sabakiable and will beat shlrm at that point.. /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif

bottom line, pai is laughing againt goh, everything which makes goh any decent is ripped appart and utterly useless against that flimsy teenage rag doll!!

and for the record..

swallow kick imo is the best move in VF, even better that SDE because you only have to look at it on paper.. 13 frame hopping mid which has a canned knockdown followup and is safe on it's first hit - which is pai's nitaku game...... it has the ability to beat 12 frames at +1!! so to an extent pai can pressure the opponent with blocked high Ps!!! plus i'm almost certain the second kick is unavoidable / frikkin hard to avoid if it is delayed after the opponent MC evades the first K.

have fun pai players ^^ --- you are all loved to bits by goh players.

EDIT: i worked out that be the best things to do against blocked or normal hit swallow kick(one K) is shrlm or high P.. unless the opponent is lightning with swallow kicks, high P will even beat the second swallow kick on normal hit.. strange because i have tried it in training mode and i have never been beaten by a second swallow K atttempt but i have with low P (might be hopping functions, could be my swallow K exe againt high P also, but i really tired myself out trying).. against everything else shrlm will actually beat them, even her chop which you cant normally duck at -2. seems like only a -1 thing..

 

clarification ---- goh's shoulder ram still loses to pai's f+P at -1.. at this point goh has already decided to hang up his hood and quit the match. X___X.

 

I can hear a Wolf calling, BK__ /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

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Goh's MP sabaki is useless cuz no real Pai player would do her chop because her and swallow kick are faster and do more damage.

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Shag, I have to disagree on the use of Pai's chop. It's a great move and I know that I use it often in pressure flowcharts. High P, Low P, Swallow Kick, Chop, and Sidekick are the ingredients to a really irritating and fast Pai rush.

The chop's stats are nothing to be ashamed of: -3 on block, +1 on normal and +5 on MC. Best part is, imo, is the +1 on mC. Personally, I like to use it after a normal hit lifting palm, where I find many players instinctively low punch, to keep the pressure on. Another reason why I use it is that it's mid - whereas her kick (albeit useful on it's own in other circumstances) hits high. I rarely incorporate her high kick as a flowcharter. I use it more in guaranteed spots - ie blocked Akira's ShRm - and also in perfect distance situations. The latter is very difficult and still something I work on (for example, back dashing just enough with the right timing to have Akira whiff an SDE and get quickly countered with a well timed and placed high kick....this is something I picked up from discussions with PongPai in Korea on IRC).

Anyway - just my 2 cents.

<font color="yellow">.cheers.</font>

 

I didn't mean Pai chop was a bad move at all, its very good actually. I stated that because against Goh, she has better alternatives when she has frame advantage.

Let's say Goh blocks a 1 hit swallow kick, her standing will beat every high or mid attack Goh has except his back kick which he will sabaki. Pai's standing MC followed by pounce is solid damage. She'll get her chop in but that's it.

In a nitaku situation, Pai's chop is the only move that Goh's MP sabaki would catch I believe, her double palm is slower than his sabaki and Goh's attack will whiff. So, its pointless for Goh to try that attack against Pai in that position. Honestly, I think Goh's MP sabaki is really effective against Akira and Lau only.

But your prolly right, not sure but Pai's chop should beat a lp attempt where as the higk kick wont. I'm gueesing during nitaku, Pai's best options are 1. lp 2. swallow 3. chop

Dont mind me any really, i'm just a grumpy Goh player. /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif I have this stubbornness to play the "new" characters in fighting games to figure them out. None of the other "new" characters from earleir versions of VF have given so much trouble figuring out. In VF4B, I had personal success with Vanessa and Lei-Fei. When Evo came out, I said I'm going to learn Goh and then Brad. I still haven't touched Brad yet./versus/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

if your learning goh, dont forget that goh's MP sabaki is just as effective vs jacky, aoi, wolf and brad to a degree just to broaden your horizon abit.

 

Goh's MP sabaki

True, but no other character abuses their MP attacks like Akira and Lau where the sabaki is worth trying. Jacky and Brad is worth mentioning as well to use it against. When I'm fighting Aoi or Wolf, I'm more concerned about other attacks than MP.

Overall, its not a good attack in general compared to other sabaki attacks.

I'm not new to Goh, I've been playing him for over a year and my most played character at the moment (about 75-80%)/versus/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I just wish I felt more confident with him. Against vs. play, I'd say I have 2-3 characters that are prolly better than my Goh (then again, one of my main opponents plays strictly Pai /versus/images/graemlins/mad.gif )

Maybe we should discuss this further in another thread. /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

Re: Goh's MP sabaki

What kind of sorry opponent only plays 1 character? What a loser. /versus/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Good info in this string.

 

Re: Goh's MP sabaki

I also only use one character which happens to be pai does that make me a loser as well?