Maximilian Dood: VF6 needs to be F2P with X-play and Rollback

Max uploaded a new video talking about the unexpected success of VF5US and what does it mean for the future. I've been advocating for a true F2P VF for years and Max coincidentally agrees with all this. A completely free to play VF with all the characters included.

Learn from the mistakes that DOA made with it's half-assed F2P model. Make it like globally successful models in other game genres like Riot Games with it's roster of free games.

I don't see a scenario that a new VF will surpass the next Tekken if they don't go F2P. SEGA is way behind from Namco just like WB tried to catch up with Marvel with their DCEU the wrong way.

 

I said the same thing here, and it's where fighters should head. DOA and KI showed how it could be done, and there are other genres to pull from. As long as I'm not locked out of gameplay, they can make as many costume packs they want.

Being accessible has been one of VF's problems, being able to jump in a give it a shot is a good way to at least get people to check it out.

 

No need to make VF6 F2P. VF5US was totally free for 2 months. There were 100's of thousands if not a million downloads. That F2P version did not make the VF community considerably larger. After all of those F2P downloads look at the online traffic now

Even If we could wave a magic wand and give VF5US rollback and perfect no lag performance, that would not increase the average number of people playing VF5US online. It would add a few players here and there but there wouldn't be any big influx of players.

The price of VF has never been a problem. In fact the most popular version of VF, VF4 Evolution came out as a greatest hits title for only $19.99. It was the most played and best sold version of VF.

F2P is not the answer. And perfect online, perfect no lag play is not going to fix VF's small player base problem.

VF5US has the most comprehensive set of online features of any Virtua Fighter. VF5US was for all intentional purposes F2P. All of these online features and F2P and still it did not surpass or even make a dent in Tekken's daily traffic. The answer is not F2P. The answer is not Rollback.

The reason why VF4EVO was the most successful Virtua Fighter was its Single Player content. Keep in mind VF4EVO had no online features at all. In fact, VF1, VF2, VF3tb, VF4, VF4EVO, VF5 (on the Playstation) had no online features at all. Online features did not make VF, and online features won't break VF VF5FS was the only version of Virtua fighter that had online features for both Playstation and Xbox. Vf5 only had online for Xbox. And VF5US only has online for Playstation. So out of all the Virtua Fighter games ever made only 3 had online features.

Maximilian Dood is not really a VF player. So who cares what his opinions are on the game

VF6 doesn't need to surpass Tekken. It just needs to be profitable and justify Sega's investment. For VF6 to be successful and to grow the player base VF6 needs considerable Single Player content, and considerable offline Versus content. Sure online features are important. But online features are secondary to Single Player and offline VS features.

The reason VF5US online is mostly a ghost town is because it has absolutely nothing to offer noobs, and casual players in the way of Single Player content. Also the offline VS mode does not offer player profiles, Tournament mode , or Team battle mode.

Until VF has solid Single Player and offline modes (like every other successful arcade fighting game) it will continue to have a small player base.

F2P and Rollback aint gonna get it.

X-Play would be a nice online feature to have. That would increase the overall player base.

 

The playerbase didn't stay in numbers because of the netcode and the fact that after all VF5US is still a remaster of an old game.

I agree that the next VF doesn't need to surpass Tekken in numbers but it needs to attract new players in order to sustain it's existence and the devs to care to support it.

If VF doesn't do it then Project L is gonna do it which is pretty much a fact since all Riot Games are F2P. And I'm pretty sure Capcom and Namco are hell gonna be watching and make their moves after Project L business model and stubborn SEGA is gonna miss the boat again if they don't take initiative.

 

Idk, i know literally douzens and douzens people who play fightings online, and they choose game with rollback over one that doesn't have it. ESPECIALLY NOW, in post-covid world where local meets took a huge hit.

And it's important much for less popular games, i mean having good netcode, because very often you just DON'T have enough interested people in your city/region, so connecting to people from other side of country or even different country alltogether is inevitable.

However, personally i would really love plenty of single player content, like missions, challenges etc. etc. And i would agree on point of "not enough attraction for casual crowd".

Don't forget, that world itself was much less online in 1990s and 2000s than it has became now. Especially younger generations. So nowodays you have to take in account online experience.

 

VF doesn’t need to be free to play. It just needs to be available with rollback netcode since that’s the only thing people care about. If it’s shiny and new they play it. It’s safe to say Sega is ran by a bunch of Penny-pinching monkeys. I’m starting understand every bad thing that ever happen to them they bought it on themselves……. And probably deserve it.

 

Of course online play is important Of course anyone would rather play rollback rather than delay-based netcode Of course in 2022 the online experience must be taken into account

My point is rollback netcode alone will not dramatically change the VF player base.

Fact, Guilty Gear, Tekken , Soul Calibur , Mortal Kombat , Street Fighter all have significant, compelling Single Player content, Story Modes, Character Back Stories, and Offline Modes. VF5US is the only current arcade fighter that does not have those things. That's why the player base is what it is. That's why most days VF5US online is a ghost town. Adding Rollback netcode to VF5US today would not dramatically change the size of the VF player base, or the average number of players online. Yes it would make the current players happier. Yes it would invite a few Tekken, or Strive, or SC players to visit VF5US online a little more . But it wouldn't significantly change daily average online player count.

Fact Every successful arcade fighting game with a large player base, every single one of them (there are no exceptions) have significant single player content to back that online play up. For some reason online players are in denial about how important and critical single player modes are to the success of any arcade fighting game

Lag is bad. The reason why lag is bad is because move timing is unreliable and frame knowledge is useless. Combos cannot be properly executed. Evades don't work right. All the practice in the dojo and all the character matchup studying goes out the window with bad netcode. All the things that normally give masters confidence they will win all go out the window when the netcode is bad. Good players end up losing to scrubs, mediocre players can beat the masters when the netcode is bad. The match ends up being more about luck than skill when the netcode is bad.

Fact: Noobs, & New Comers, by definition haven't had time to perfect move timing, or character match-ups, or character frame knowledge. So noobs & new comers really don't care about the netcode as much as the hardcore players. So its not bad netcode that drives away noobs, new comers, or casual players. Its the fact that VF5US has nothing else but online. Nothing else to offer new players. Nothing to offer people who want to play the game offline. While online netcode is important, and online rollback will be nice. VF6 will need a lot more(a lot more) than rollback to build a growing thriving player base.

Maximilian Dood and others think the primary thing to save VF, or to bring it on par with Tekken and Strive and others is rollback netcode. But if you spend any real time watching Max, he is definitely into Character Back Stories, Single Player Modes, and Character Lore of the fighting games that he seriously streams. For some reason his video on VF6 doesn't mention anything about story mode or single player content. recommendations for VF6. So I think Max is just pandering to the FGC players who stream content. AFAIC Max is being disingenuous and hypocritical for not bringing up Single Player and Story Mode recommendations for VF6 considering that he wants Single Player stuff and story mode stuff in his favorite fighting games. Fortunately @Tricky video on VF6 does mention the need for Story mode or something beyond just rollback.

I play a lot of VF. I mean a lot. And I really don't give a damn about online features. And there are other players who feel the way I do. And most noobs, and new players to a fighting game don't even know what rollback netcode is, and don't feel confident enough to challenge people online when they're just starting out. So shoving online play with rollback netcode as the only thing VF6 needs is misguided and uninformed.

It seems VF6 is definitely coming. I truly hope that it has a helluva lot more than just an online mode with rollback netcode

 

Great point. Retention isn't going to happen without people trying in the first place, or when other games in the genre let the player have a better time with the game because of solid online connections.

Rollback confirmation brings people to the game, when said game has it. It's not always like that, but the chances someone decided to take it for a spin increase since the online portion part is supposed to hold up. I'm lucky I can get solid connection but if I couldn't, while other games worked better, I'd bounce off it too.

Solid online play is the lynchpin in games like this. Single player content should be VF4:Evo, but if it is and the online is bad/outdated, those cool features can go to waste if people hear a crucial part of the game is lacking.

 

Your statement "Solid online play is the lynchpin in games like this". Would be true if it were changed to:

Solid online play is a lynchpin in games like this.

Presumably the phrase "games like this" is referring to Tekken, DOA, and Soul Calibur. They are the primary successful 3D arcade fighting games that have "online play".

Fact: Tekken, DOA, and Soul Calibur do not really have rollback. And what netcode they have is often criticized by a certain percentage of their fans. Yet these games have a reasonable daily online activity and very successful sales figures. Much more than VF5US.

Fact: Tekken DOA, and Soul Calibur all have signficant Story mode, Story Lore, Single Player content that represent a "primary lynchpin in games like this" and VF5US has no significant Story mode, Story Lore or Single Player content.

The Netcode doesn't stop Soul Calibur or Tekken players because the Story Mode and Single Player content creates the passion, dedication, interest, and loyalty to the game that causes players to disregard inadequate, poor, or bad netcode.

Yes high level players, professional players and e-sports hopefuls are put off by bad netcode. And are all screaming for rollback for VF5US. BUT TBH noobs, new players, casuals don't prioritize netcode. As long as they can play friends, and family and are having fun its all good So what if long combo execution is unreliable. So what it wall carries and wall splat response timing is off. So what if evades only work 1/4 of the time. noobs, new players and casuals don't know any long combos, or how to do wall carries. They don't even realize their evades are only working 1/4 of the time. They haven't played the game enough to get matchup combo timing down. Or to know what combo should work or not work on what weight class. So if netcode fucks any of that up, they don't care And when you're playing family or friends if the connection is mediocre, its mediocre for both players. So at least everybody is moving in quick sand and the slow, choppy animations just end up looking funny to everybody.

But if a 3D arcade fighting game (which VF5US is) has no Story Mode, Story Lore, Significant Single Player content (which VF5US does not) then rollback netcode will only keep the most hardcore, high level, e-sports hopefuls coming back. Everyone else will go play another game that has something more for noobs, new players or casual players


Solid Online Play may be a lynchpin in games like these. But it is not the only lynchpin in games like these. Its not even the most important:

• Lynchpin 1: Fighting Engine and Balance
• Lynchpin 2: Roster
• Lynchpin 3: Significant Single Player/Offline Modes
• Lynchpin 4: Solid Netcode
• Lynchpin 5: Graphics/Presentation

If a 3D Arcade Fighting Game is missing any of the top 3 Lynchpins, Solid Netcode is meaningless. The game is doomed to a small niche player base .On the other hand, VF1, VF2, VF3tb, VF4, VF4EVO, VF5(PS3) had no online features. They had no netcode at all. Yet they are beloved games by 100's of thousands of players world wide.

 

Master, from all the 3D fighting games you mention, only Tekken 7 has successful sales figures. Dead or Alive 6 and SoulCalibur VI sales numbers were disappointing for Koei Tecmo and Bandai Namco, respectfully.

As for VF5US, SEGA said US was going to be a small project, an online focused game free to play for 2 months on PS Plus. Nothing more, nothing else. It's been 7 months after the release of US and you keep repeating the same thing over and over again. Don't get me wrong, I would love a story Mode (RGG Studio excels at crafting stories) and a Quest Mode like the one in VF4Evo. But, I want to see things like that in the next VF, not US. Because they are not going to add new single player content.

VF is a beautiful game and the king of 3D fighting games, no doubt about it. I'm sure with great single player content and a solid netcode, the next VF is going to be a huge hit.

 

Technically we can't call VF5US F2P since it is on paid PS Plus service in both to get it and also be able to play online. VF was fine already and acceptable when it had VF4EVO offline features and we thought it gonna continue as this while improving it, but it didn't after VF5 vanilla.

I don't think VF is a popular game material, it ain't built for that. Other fighting games are extremely fan service, funky, diverse, supernatural, prolific in production, story based, simpler mechanics, creative modes ect

VF in other hand is deep, more complicated mechanics, skill based, learning time consuming to be decent with or at least be familiar and all this to just start enjoy it against others also it has basic typcial characters designs & personality that doesn't attract average people or catch their eyes to he honest.

Rollback isn't the solution for VF demographic; already many other fighting games has rollback net code yet you see more players on other more better or popular fighting games than them, because they like the game in the 1st place not because it has rollback net code. Even if VF5US was launched with rollback netcode, do you think it will keep the new players? Nope.

What SEGA needs to care for its loyal fans for VF by releasing VF6 instead of trying to recruiting new ones in failed attempt of releasing VF5US with no rewarding offline modes & delay based netcode and DLC packs.

 

This is just straight-up incorrect. Just look at guilty gear strive, Mortal Kombat, hype for KOF XV, activity spikes in other games that had rollback added like garou motw etc. Rollback is a ###BIG DEAL### in the FG community and a good fighter that could do it right would (and does) absolutely pull in players in huge numbers. Not to poo on the game we actually got, but I fully believe that a VF5US that had launched with good enough netcode to connect people across continents would have certainly had very high retention.

 

You straight up didn't know how to read what i've said. I didn't say netcode isn't big deal, my point netcode alone isn't what makes game have big demographic or recruit more players, that's why not all of fighting games that have rollback net code have same number of audience or popularity which means there is more than a factor to bring more players into one game and there is a hierarchy & ranking for fighting games based on popularity already.

Netcode alone isn't end all be all and that's why i & we were discussing the whole picture and quality content of VF. Online is just one major aspect, but not all of it. Online is only the way not the core (content and gameplay).

I even mentioned how SEGA failed by releasing VF5US with delay based netcode since it is heavily online game but it seems you didn't finish reading the whole thing or missed it like how you missed the 1st part point

 

Guilty gear strive sold 5x as much as the previous game in the series. Why do you think that is? Answer: rollback netcode. Other stuff is fine and dandy but excellent netcode is paramount.

 

Unless the game is Street Fighter or Tekken, launching with rollback is paramount. Not sure if the schism between SoJ and SoA from the 90's to mid-2000's still exist,but ignoring the rollback call was dumb, even for a market test. Player retention would've been something.

 

VF has gotten so much easier than before especially with the last version but the perception of VF being super difficult persists among many out of ignorance. I don't think it's all that helpful. Tekken 7 is the most successful fighting game and doesn't have this reputation/stigma and yet I think it's a harder more complicated game to get into than the latest VF.

The other 3d fighting games that failed Dead or Alive 6 and Soul Calibur 6 had a number of issues. DOA6's gameplay was never liked by it's fanbase compared to DOA5 and had some really scummy DLC pricing as well as bad netcode. SC6 also had bad netcode and was done on a really tight budget and it showed in the lack of content and graphics. The new reversal edge mechanic got a lot of stick too. It's a shame though as I think SC6 is still a really good game and the best Soul Calibur for a long time.

 

Sry M8. SC6 is considered a success by the fan base in general, by the producer and by Project Soul. As far as online, on average the game usually has 10 times the number of players as VF5US online. Tournaments are held regularly for SC6. Its not as big as Tekken 7. But it did better than SC V and SC IV.


You are correct about DOA6. it was a flop. The DLC was total bull$#it, (e.g. paying for hair dye, etc) and they cut out a lot of single player content. It had an extremely trimmed down Story Mode. They fu#ked up some of the game mechanics. And Team Ninja took out the Virtua Fighter characters. Some fan favorite franchise characters (e.g Genfu) was removed from the game.. It was also missing an online lobby when initially shipped. The publicity for the lollipops in the game went too far DOA 6 was a major disappointment. Even if it had perfect rollback netcode, the game would have still failed. To my knowledge DOA has never had rollback netcode and that never stopped the majority of their fanbase from playing the game.


Netcode can be a factor in how successful a fighting game turns out to be. But bad netcode alone is not what kills a fighting game. A Fighting Game with solid single player, and solid offline game play, solid VS modes, good fighting mechanics and good roster but bad netcode can still be very successful


To reiterate the majority of Virtua Fighter games ever sold (VF1, VF2, VF3TB, VF4, VF5(PS3) had no online, no netcode at all. If Sega were to add perfect rollback netcode to VF5US today the game would see an uptick in traffic for about 3 weeks, and then it would be back to rank mode ghost town and a couple dozen private sessions of 2-3 players. This is because VF5US is not a full game. It has no signficant Single Player. It has No offline VS tournament mode. It has no offline player profiles, ranks, or stats. It literally has nothing to offer new players, or casual players. And to be clear hard core players, e-sports players, competitive players are ultimately drafted from the pool of new players or the once casual player. So if a game has nothing to offer new players, noobs, or casual players there will be no pool to get competitive players from. Only loyal fans from decades gone by will be playing the game That is the people who started with Virtua Fighter when it did have significant Single Player, and Offline Modes, Offline Player Profiles, Stats, Ranks etc. (e.g VF4, VF4 EVO, VF5)

 

That perception was unfortunately a psychological by product, caused by advertising tricks, created by Sony and video game journalists in the 90's, to hype up and sell Tekken games on the playstation 1, and make noobs and future fighting game fans, stay away from the sega saturn and VF games, and even away from other fighting game franchises.

 

Lol guys why y'all keep cutting part of what i have said then build all of your reaction on it... 1st it was about netcode then about "complications" of a gameplay. I repeat again, no single thing can make a game success or huge demographic, that's why i said there is so many factors and i mentioned them above, never said something alone can turn off people or attract them, it is multifaceted matter but some stuff can be more popular or preferable to most people than others.

Tekken is just now more "complicated" than other games, but its big demographic never built for T7, actually it did built through years since Tekken 1-6 and its unique presentation until now to see its fans are developing themselves as well to cope with its complications. Tekken is different story and world, so it is not a fair identical comparison.

Like i said:

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This was VF stereotype reputation that even VF players participated in when we do brag about how VF is "deep" compared to other fighting games.

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At this point we wish we can build our own games based on our needs and taste cause no one listen or care even SEGA lol

 

Yeah, even wishing is a dream. Sega wouldn't release the source code for that game, to the VF fanbase. Not in a million years. And neither would any other fighting game company do that either.