Monkey Flow

So I've been updating my blog with some tid bits here about eileen and I thought I'd share it with the site here too. It's a grouping of moves that all leave you at a particular frame advantage or disadvantage based on the type of hit. I'll be further updating this list to include different things you can do at these frame situations to beat an opponent's potential responses. Feel free to add to this and correct any errors if you see any. I left out moves that stagger and down opponents.


In this list BL stands for blocked, NH is normal hit, and CH is counter hit, TE is a broken Throw by the opponent. zenk = 236P+K; Enko = 214P+K


0 moves = NH 6P, CH 2K, NH 3K, NH 214P+K,K


+1 moves = BL zenk K, NHPP6P, CHP3P, NH 66P, NH 4P+K, CH 1P+K, zenk ,K, BL BT P, CH BT 2K


+2 moves = BL P, CH PP, CH6PP2K, NH 1P, NH 6K+G, NH 4K+G, NH 9P+K+G,P


+3 moves = NH 44P, CH 6P+K, NH K+G, BL 236P, NH BT P+K


+4 moves = CH PPP, NH PK, NH 2P, CH 1P, CH 6P+KP, NH 43P+K, NH 214P, CH 214PP, NH 214PPP, NH 236K+G, NH BT P, CH BT 2P, NH BT K, CH BT 2KP


+5 moves = NH P, CH 3P, CH 6K+G, CH 4P+K,K, CH 214P,K


+6 moves = CH PP6P, Crouching Opponent 6P, NH 4P, NH 1PK, NH 4K, CH 43P+K, CH 4K+G, CH 4K+G,K, CH 9P+K+G,P, NH zenk,K, crouching opponent 214PK, crouching opponent 4K+G,K


+7 moves = CH6P, CH 4P, CH 2P, CH 4P+K, CH K+G, CH 214P, CH BT P, CH BT P+K


+8 moves = CH P, crouching opponent 3K, CH 3K, CH 214P+K,K, CH 236K+G, crouching opponent 214P+K,K, NH Dec P, CH BT K


+9 moves = CH 44P


+10 moves = 6P+G(2/8)


+11 moves = CH Dec P, Right side P+G


+12 moves = NH P+K, CH P+K, CH 4K, CH 1PK


+16 moves = 6P+G6


now the negative frame moves


-1 moves = NH 6PP, NH 4P+K,K, NH 4K+G,K, BL 9P+K+G,PP, NH 214PK NH BT 2KP


-2 moves = BL P+K, NH 6P+K, BL 4P+K, BL 214P, NH Enko 2K, NH BT 2K


-3 moves = NH P3P, BL 4P, BL 44P, NH 3P, BL K, NH 1P+K,P, NH 8P+K+G,P, BL Dec P, NH BT 2P, BL BT K


-4 moves = NH PP, BL PK, BL 6P, NH 6PP2K, BL 46P, BL 1PK, NH 3P+K, NH 1P+K, BL K+G, NH 214PP, BL BT P+K


-5 moves = BL PP6P, BL 2P, BL 3P, BL 4K, BL 6K+G, BL 4K+G, BL 46K+G, NH 8P+K+G,PP, NH zenk 2K


-6 moves = BL PP, BL6PP, BL 1P, NH 2K, BL 3K, BL 6P+K, NH 6P+K,P, BL 3P+K, BL 4K+G,K, BL 8P+K+G,P, BL 9P+K+G,P, BL 214PP, BL 214P,K, BL Enko K, BL 236K+G, BL BT 2P, BL BT 2KP, TE P+G, TE 46P+G,


-7 moves = BL 6PPK, BL 66P, BL 6K, BL 4P+K,K, BL 1P+K, BL Zenk P, BL Zenk K


-8 moves = BL PPP, NH PPP, BL P3P, BL 33P, BL 9P, BL 66K, BL 6P+K,P, BL 43P+K, BL 2_3P+K, BL 1P+K, BL K+G,K, BL 6P+K+G,P, BL 6P+K+G,K, NH 6P+K+G,K+G,K, BL 8P+K+G,PP, NH Zenk 2KK, CH Zenk 2KK, BL BT 2K


-9 moves = BL 9P+K+G,K, TE 66P+G, TE 46P+G, TE wall 64P+G


-10 moves = BL 214PPP, BL236K


-11 moves = TE 63214P+G, TE 6P+G


-12 moves = NH 7K+G, BL BT 8K


-13 moves = BL 3PP, BL Enko P


-15 moves = BL 4PPK, BL 2K, BL 9K, BL 6P+K,P,P, BL 2_3P+K,P, BL 2P+K+G,K, BL 8P+K+G,PPP, BL 8P+K+G, K, BL 236KK, BL 214K+G, BL BT 2KPP


-16 moves = BL Zenk 2KK, BL Jump Dec K, BL BT 2K+G


-18 moves = BL 6K+G,K, BL 2K+G, BL 3K+G, BL 9P+K+G,P,K BL Enko 2K


-19 moves = BL 214K


-21 moves = BL 6P+K+G,K+G, BL zenk 2K


-23 moves = BL 7K+G


-29 moves = BL BT K+G

 

So a bunch of moves leave you at +1 but what are you supposed to do with this? Well that depends on the opponent you're facing, here are some ways to deal with someone at this frame advantage based on some common types of responses. There are exceptions to this, but those are for the most part character specific. This list is just to help narrow your choices down so you don't have to think as hard about what you want to do and more on what your opponent has been doing and will do again.

If they like to use a high punch 11f exe, or really any high attack but for these purposes I'll only talk about the fasest options in the game. (not Vane's 6F high punch)

-46P for a combo
-3P+K for a combo if they do a slow attack
-1P+KP
-1P+K, Zenk K to reset the situation
-2P you'll get a counter hit and good advantage after this
-2_3P+K into 214P+K
-2_3P+KP
-33P into combo of choice
-2K+G
-P wins for CH
-CH PK
-4P+K+G against P's

If they like doing a single mid attack like shun's 15 frame 6P

-2P still wins for CH and leaves you at +8
-P also still works for CH
-Your own 6P will beat his 15 frame 6P since it's 16 frames now, though even at 0 you'd beat his
-4K+G,K if you need the damage and they tend to crouch after getting CH or 2P
-4K+G for CH to give yourself +6 to work with (nitaku)
-CH 4PPK great if you're near a wall so you can combo
-CH PK
-CH 3P, 214K+G
-CH 3P, 236KKK if you need more damage
- CH K if you're near a wall for a large wall hit into decent combo
- CH P+K,P+K,PK or throw
-CH 7K+G if you need some breathing room

Some characters have very fast mids like Jacky's 2K+G or Pai's double palm. They have 12 exe frames. They have to be dealt with too, but they'll get their own category since they're fairly unique moves.

-2P will CH still
-P will CH
-CH PK
-CH 4PPK
-Backdash Canceled into 46P [if there is only 1 attack. Won't work against a string]
-Backdash canceled into 66P

You can see many of your previous options are shut down at +1 with characters that can throw out those 12 frame mids, so be careful and aware of which characters have these types of moves because they can punish you very easily.

Some Mid attacks hop over lows, or otherwise crush low attacks. In those cases make sure not to use the low attack options in this list, only use the mid and high attacks. Some moves crush High attacks, so use the mid and low move options. There are also moves that basically crush particular classes of moves and you will need to deal with them on a case by case bases. This is just a list to start you off, but you still need to think and choose which option here based on what type of attack you're dealing with beyond just the move hit level and execution frames.


Dealing with 2P is a whole another animal here, but eileen has a good set of tools to combat it.

-2P back for CH
-9P for minor CH combo
-9K+G for minor CH combo
-8P+K+G,PPP into 3P,214K+G. The timing is tight for this and the opponent can't delay their low attack at all for this to work.
-Backdash cancel 3K
-Backdash cancel 6P
-Backdash cancel 43P+K for CH into 214K+G combo

 

Good posts. I saw this on your blog as well. As you say it comes down to what you think your opponent will retaliate with. Dudes struggling with a specific situation might find their answer here, or just get some new ideas!

It's very helpful the way you listed it too. So thanks, I like when people actually take their time to share info and work. Good job with this!

 

Here's the rest of the what to do at +1 section


Ok so that covers all the attacks they might do but what about a moral opponent who will not attack from disadvantage? Well there are a few options they have at their disposal. They could backdash, backdash evade cancel to your front, backdash evade cancel to your back, crouch backdash, fuzzy, evade to your front, evade to your back, stand and block, crouch and block. Lets go over the options you have to shut that stuff down as you'll be seeing it a lot since your pressure will make some players clam up and you want them pressing buttons.


Backdashing

-3K them for that butt stagger
- CH 66P into combo
-CH 46P into combo
-CH3K+G
-6P+K+G,K+GKK
-6P+K+G,K
-6K

Backdash evade cancel to your front

-CH 6K+GK combos
-CH 6K+G to get yourself +5
-CH 6P+K+G,K+GKK
-Forward dash delay P+K
-Forward dash 9K+G

Backdash evade cancel to your back

-Forward dash delay P+K
-Forward dash 9K+G
-Forward dash delay attack in general
-6P+K+G,K+G,KK

Standing Block

-throw them
-low attack with 2K, 3P+K but you'll now be at disadvantage
-low sweep them
-6P+K+G,K+GKK
-Standing P them to get them to crouch
-236P
-zenk K

Crouching Block

-6P for +6 frames
-3K for +8 frames
-9P for combo
-9K+G for smaller combo
-33P combo
-3P if they tend to attack after getting hit from block you can go into the second hit, though that's very risky
-6P+K+G,K
-9P+K+G,K
-9P+K+G,PP
-236P

Evading to your back

-4K
-4P+K,214K+G
-214PP
-2K+G,K
-K+G

Evading to your front

-44P
-4K+G
-214PP
-2K+G,K
-K+G


Here's a post on what to do against Vane's 6F punch at +1





So I should actually talk about this move since it's actually a really common vane player tactic. This can become a pain to deal with, but at least it's just one situation and you can figure out pretty easily when a vane player will use this and punish them for it. So lets go through this real quickly.

You're at +1 and Vane is going to use the 3P 6Frame punch to interrupt your flow, what do you do?

-Duck it and launch punish her with your 9K+G launcher. You have to just tap down just for a short time to get the 9K+G to hit them before they can block it. This launch will lead to big damage so very good punish.

-46P into combo
-CH2P them for +7 advantage
-2_3P+K for a NH. This is nice if you're not sure if the 3P is coming or if they're going to just duck blocking.
-2K is an option but not the best. It's a decent option select for dealing with 3P and a fuzzy guarding opponent since you'll hit either way but you have given advantage back to your opponent.
-1P+K,P
-1P+K
-Backdash quickly canceled into 9K+G
-Backdash canceled into pretty much any poke or launcher will work.
-Backdash canceled into 3K is nice to feel them out if you're unsure what's coming next.
-Backdash canceled into PK or P
-You could block it standing too, but now you're at -1.


Until you get to +5 your options against Vane's 3P don't change from those listed here. I'll start talking about other options you have once I get up to that part.


Post on what to do at +2

Lets go over the very common situation of +2 frames. This happens after a blocked standing jab, which is something that you'll deal with every match no matter what skill level you're talking about. How you respond to this kind of situation is critical. Keep in mind all the options that were there at +1 will apply for +2 also. The thing is you want to use this extra frame you've now gained, so it'd be a little of a waste not to use an attack that might be a bit slower but lead to more outcomes. I will try not to list moves from lower frame advantages so that you'll only see the new options that are now opened to you.


vs 11f P

-4P hit checked into rest of the 4PPK string
-K will beat heavy weight character P's (like wolf, jeff, taka's 12 frame P)

The rest of your options are the same as for +1 refer to my previous post for that. Also note that these options are also available against characters at +1 who have a 12 frame punch.

vs a 14f mid

-3K will win now which is a big deal since it deals with crouching opponents too.
-4K high half circular that also covers her back.
-BT 2K

everything else is the same as previous post.

12f mids

against someone like Pai you gain nothing more than you had at +1 since her 3P+K does 20 damage and will beat out your 6P since your attack only does 17 points of damage. Against Jacky though you'd beat him with your 6P

-6P for jacky's lightning legs.


Against 2P

-6P for counter hit. Just as a reminder you were also beating out your opponents 14f mid and 12f P's. I can't stress how useful this move is in this +2 situation, which happens ALL THE TIME! Get your opponent to block or evade and you can start really pressuring them with throws and half circulars.


Against Defensive Tech.

Backdashing

- 9K+G if they're at point blank range before the backdash leads to you counter hitting them before they finish animation of backdashing
-6K ( I forgot to add this during the +1 section)

The rest of the defensive tech like evading and the general blocking stuff doesn't change here. It actually doesn't change at all, the only difference is at higher fram advantages these moves that beat out defensive tech become stronger because they start to overlap with moves that beat their offensive options too. Just refer to the +1 section for the list on how to deal with defensive options.

 

How to deal with Crouching Block Opponents


First few second of this song represent my mindset when dealing with this situation

So you're fighting an opponent who will not for the life of them stand up and block. No matter what you do they are consistently choosing to crouch block your set ups at all advantages. This is less of a problem at higher frames but can be troublesome at low frame advantage. This post is going to address how to mount an offense that's safe on an opponent of this type without relying on 6P the whole match as that will only leave you at 0 frames if they decide to stand up and get hit.

When dealing with this situation you want moves that are not just going to deal with them crouching but also have followups that lead to more damage or plus frames so you can push the offensive.

First to start you need to be using 6P and 3K against them when crouching. 6P is good because you're at +6 after that, and 3K is even better since you're at +8 when that one hits them. These are decent moves to get your frames but you don't want to just keep spamming it for 1 you're really not safe from evades with 3K, and second you are very predictable. Plus you want damage and those moves alone only give you the frames you need to get more damage of other stuff.

So lets go over what you can do after you 6P hits. This is going to overlap with the +6 section, I just want to go over it specifically against opponents who stubbornly crouch.

So these options will beat them if they choose to crouch or even if they finally decide to come out their shell and attack with P, 2P, or 6P they're getting hit still. Your goal here is not really to hit them as much as it is to make them respect your mid game enough to stand up and block. Some opponents won't stand up no matter how much you hit them and you will need an answer for those players.

So another 6P will hit them again, but you're not really gaining much from doing this. Granted it has it's place and will beat out all their attacking options and give them some reason to stand up, but it's not going to win you the round if you're doing that all round as they'll just start evading you and 2Ping. Lets go over stronger options here.

3P (becomes 9 frames essentially) will hit them if they attack you or if they decide they want to crouch again. Now you have options here since you can follow up with the next attack in the string which leaves you at -13. That's not the worst thing in the world, just make sure you're buffering your easy TE's. They do have guaranteed follow ups to blocking this though so it's not great either. You must mix up things enough so they aren't blocking after you hit them with 3P, and keep in mind they're also at +3 when you hit them normally. If it's a counter hit you can follow up with the second P for free damage. Hit check it is key.

--->The mix ups are.
-3P, zenk K This will force them to stand up and block the K less they get put in the same situation as zenk K on NH to crouchers will be +6 just like the 6P. You will also get to keep your offense running as you're +1 even if they block high, which they will probably do since they just got hit and if they know eileen at all, they know the second mid will yield them large advantage. The downside is you can get punched out the air for doing this, but low attacks won't work. If they tend to crouch and use 2P a lot, this is a great way to shut them down hard. But it's not all you need to be using here. This also hits people who fuzzy guard to crouch.

-3P, zenk throw. This will catch that person who thinks that evading your zenk K was a good idea, or evading the follow up P. This will actually lead them to want to attack you more which takes them out their shell and into your domain. You are also giving the opponent a reason to want to duck after your 3P hits, which is great to condition them to get hit from the zenk K, or your followup P.

-3P, Enko P. This is good for dealing with people who attack with P or 2P as you'll get out the way of their attack and hit them for big damage, you also get mix up potential with 8P+K+G,PPP stuff to throw more mids their way.

-3P, 236P. Good only really if they're very passive and won't attack you. This is also a good move to give them reason to want to attack instead of blocking as this will lead to decent combos and +3 if they block. You will be able to follow up with another 6P in that case and start the mix up all over again.

-3P,214PP (mixup more) So they want to evade you? Well you hit them wit this circular which combos on counter hit and normal hit, and you can go into any of these other anti ducking cancellation tech moves. you better know they're going to evade though because you're open for a launcher if you whiff. This needs to be shown every so often, but don't make too big a habit of it.

-3P, 4K+G. Make them not want to evade you with this. Also mix up with 4K. Keep in mind these are both high attacks, as are all of eileen's circulars that aren't low. So you need to be careful here. I'd wait until I know they're done crouching all day before using this too much also.

-3P, 6P+K+G, K+G will shut evades down hard and it's less risky than 2P+K+G. This would be my go to against evades. They can't attack you in time to stop this from coming out. Just ducking will beat this out though.


1P is another decent move to use as it's 10 frames in this situation and leave you at +2 on normal hit and +4 on counter. This means on normal hit you can do most of the same stuff you'd normally do from +2, but again lets focus on move mid hitting moves that will allow you to continue your offense.

1P, 6P. This will beat out all attacks a heavyweight will throw at you, but a P can beat you if it's 11frames. Though we're guessing the opponent is going to crouch so you're going to be back at +6 frames and can throw back out the 1P to go into all the mixups again. This is a good choice. On Counter Hit I'd use 3K since it'll function the same way the 6P did on normal hit and give you +8 now.

1P, zenk mixups. This all works the same way as before and they have less time to react now since you're at +2. You might want to make them afraid of your other options before you get too comfortable with this though.

1P,214PP mixups. Same deal as mentioned earlier.

1P, 2P+K+G . They have to block this standing or evade and PK you. You can counter the PK followup with using 2P+K+G to duck it. This will make them want to use mids and lows, but those aren't guaranteed on evadeing 1P so you've made a good guessing game for yourself.

-1P, 6P+K+G, K+G will shut evades down hard and it's less risky than 2P+K+G. This would be my go to against evades. They can't attack you in time to stop this from coming out. Just ducking will beat this out though.

-1P,K if they're evading to your back to give yourself +6 on NH or +9 on CH along with side turned situation. They can duck this though so if they're not attacking and just ducking or not evading, you're going to have a bad time.

66P will exe in 13 frames due to your advantage. This is an okay option as you'll be at +1 on normal hit. That's not great but you can work with that and continue your offense. You won't be able to follow up with a 6P to get that +6 frames to work with after landing this since you can be hit with anything really at that frame advantage if you 6P. Also keep in mine that they could attack you with 2P or P to shut this down. However if you spot them using mid, slow attacks, or they love to backdash after you hit them with 6P, this is a great option. Don't forget about it.





33P is 17f's in this situation which is okay. They can hit you out of it kinda easily, but it's still fairly fast and will deal good damage due to combo potential. This will make them want to stand up or at least fuzzy guard. However it's kind of easy to deal with by standing and going back to ducking. You want to do this only when you know they're not capable of reacting to it or have forgotten you have this as an option. I'd put this lower on the list of option to use against high level opponents.








3K will give you +8 so you can use some even bigger moves in this case and still beat out attacks and crouching. Keep in mind all the stuff at the +6 frames still work the same here, but you're wasting frames in a sense and limiting your mix up potential by not using the new tools available to you now. You are at more advantage now and that should be reflected in your choices.

46P+K is your go to move in this situation. You want to be knocking them with this because if they duck you're at +4 on normal hit, you can cancel into your other moves for mixups, and it's only 11 frames now. Oh and on normal hit you can cancel into 214K+G if you cancel soon after it hits. If you're late on the cancel you'll end up blocked.

Zenk followups are very strong after this move hits, not so much when blocked. Hit check this. Once they start blocking it you can start to use your regular high attack based offense.

66P (now 11 F attack) becomes an even more enticing option now because it will beat out any attack leading to a crumble state, or will leave you at +1 on NH. Lackluster if they're smart and just block so I won't focus too much on this one, but it's useful and will beat anything they throw at you attack wise. They'll want to evade this one which is great. Now you can throw other types of moves at them now, or even throw.



9K+G is 9 frames. So you can launch them if they attack, but if they're just ducking you don't really get all that much damage off this and you're risking -15 if they do finally block. I wouldn't go to this unless they're tending to abare a lot.

3K is now 8 frames. Gives you a good reason to throw out another 3K, but if they stand up you're going to lose your momentum on NH. Also very unsafe against evades. Use it once in a while but not a go to option against competent opponents that know how to vary their defense a little bit.

6K is 9frames here. This becomes a very good option as it'll knock them down, chase them if they're running, and lets you start the scary oki games. Nice go to move in this situation.


9P becomes a 13 frame move here. Considering this move should only really be used to beat low attacks, I'd shy away from this unless they're throwing mids at you a lot as this'll beat most mid attack speed moves. You will get swatted out the air with a high though, so I'm not too big a fan of this move until you know for sure what's coming next. [edit: I've changed my mind about this move. It is awesome and use it if you expect throw, low attacks, or abare mids from +7 or above]

 

BTW if people have specific questions they'd like me to go over in one of my blog posts just leave a comment on my or here and I'll go into more depth to answer the question. I don't want to just give you what I think is useful, but also address specific issues you're having.

 

It might sound stupid, and I sure hope it's the good topic top post this :

- What's the deal with Eileen?
I'm a Sarah/Vanessa player, and the more I look and the more Eileen looks like fun ! So I decided to give it a try and maybe add her to my main character.
First of all thank you for all your efforts, really appreciated and very good read. But before learning how to deal with situations, I'd like to know : What's the mindset behind that character?

What are you looking for when you play Eileen? To be honest I'm looking for a tricky (hum ...) character. Can Eileen be that really annoying as hell monkey that you can't predict and is getting massively on your nerves?
For now I just understand that she has a lot of moves that you can recovery cancel by a special stance. Sounds awesome but is it viable/useful?

Any hints/advices on the character " philosophy " will be useful !
Thx

 

Good question, I'll make a post addressing just that. I'm sure you'll get different answers from other players so I'll just be giving you my impression of her. Tricky is the key word here when thinking about her, that's actually why I named myself Tricky. That's pretty much how she is as a character.

 

Ok sounds nice, can't wait to read it !

Btw I did some research and maybe you all know that already but it might help beginners like myself in the future :

Eileen has a set of moves like every character in the game. And like every character she has something unique to her gameplay.
I figured (for now, I might be mistaking) that it's the ability to recovery cancel a lot of attacks by two categories of moves :
Interrupt moves & Cancel moves.

- Interrupt moves : Those are stances with 2 or sometimes more moves. They are perfect to mindfuck the opponent since there is really many tricky moves with interrupt moves. 4 Interrupt moves exist : 8_2_6_9P+K+G and in two of them (8 and 6) there is a move that you can cancel_interrupt.

- Cancel moves : Those are just more attacks. Some are fast, other are kinda slow. There is a lot of choice in Cancel moves, a lot more than interrupt. There is even some stances ! 214P+K and 236P+K
What is interesting, is that some of thoses attacks cancel the recovery and most of the time can't be interrupt after a normal move.
For exemple : BL 3P~214P cannot be interrupted. (Tested on Pai with guard and coutnerattack 1). 214P and 236K are pretty fast and will counter hit most of the time if the opponent tries something funny. But they're high !

Now, I guess it'll be super useful to make some lists for everyone. Like a list of all interrupt & cancel moves and what are they for, and a list of all the normal moves that can be cancel&interrupted. With of course some comments like : this is the best one because bla bla bla.
I might do that when I'm more familiar with the character. But I'll be delighted if someone wants to do it !

Last but not least, I noticed there is like a pattern with some of the normal moves&strings.

Some of them have a super unsafe finish that can lead to some good damage if the opponent tries to mash a button.
Exemple : P,3P,K
P,3P can be canceled or interrupted
The last K is a mid that'll stagger the opponent en NH. Seems nothing is guaranteed (put the cpu on fastest stagger recovery) but gives some good advantage and a very painful combo on those who can't recover fast enough.

3P,P looks the same
3P can be canceled or interrupted
The last P will lead to a small combo on MC

P,P,P,K
P,P can be canceled or interrupted
P,K is natural counter combo if the opponent tries to hit you, unless he 2P. (That would be the worst exemple but I put it anyway)

6P,P,K_2K
6P,P can be canceled or interrupted (even tho 2P after 6P will MC you, again for the exemple)
K will MC or jump 2P, 2K will interrupt everything and gives you +2.

Same for 1P,K
The K will give you +9 on MC and the opponent will be sided (= an horrible situation to be in). Sets you up for the side throw that deals 30 damage and gives you +8 frames advantage, or any side guard pressing you guys must have. I would love to know them !
You can 8_9P+K+G to evade 2P after 1P so this one is actually a pretty good one since the kick is semi circular.

Etc. I think you get the idea. And it all works even if you delay the last hit. Because you can delay those attacks too !

So I don't know what it's worth, might be interesting to lab the hell out of those things. Or not. I dunno, I'm still pretty green haha
But'll try to figure out some good shenanigans for Eileen, I really love that unique Interrupt&Cancel system !!

Oh and if you look closely you can actually loop cancel & interrupts with different patterns. Can be useful on a freezing opponent. They'll never understand how the monkey flow works !

 

Nice thread. Here some info


If the hit someone doing an evade or mashing that lead to a major counter and make the followup combo

The question is why someone will try to evade or crouch after PPP ? They can before

can dissuade someone to crouch after 2 first hit

can dissuade someone to evade after the 2 first hit

beat someone who mash after the 3rd hit

is +3 on block

You cannot crouch after the first hit

 

I think the reason they side step is the fact that you get 3+ on

 

You're at +3 now
So I took a slight break from the game for health reasons but I'm able to play again now. Remember folks, take 5 minute breaks every 30 minutes of playtime so you don't hurt your arm.

So lets go over what your new options are against an opponent when you're at +3 frames. Keep in mind that at -3 your opponent will have to use CrouchDash to fuzzy your mixups so you will need to have dealt with fuzzy guard to really make the rest of your mixups strong. Also eileen doesn't have a bunch of moves that leave her at +3, so you'll more often than not be left at this advantage after blocking your opponent's attack.


-11f P
-The new took you have now is 6P. This is kinda a huge deal as now you've just shut down all their potential options with a mid attack which mean they have to block or sabaki you. This is when you can really scare your opponent. Keep in mind they can fuzzy to deal with this, but that's for later discussion.


12f P


-3P mid that you can combo off of
-P+K leads to combo on CH
-K
-4K+G half circular that jumps over low attacks too.


14f mid

-1P mid. Very useful since it'll also beat crouching blockers and can be canceled out of.

-9K+G mid standard launcher is great option for good combo.

-1P+K is a special low that will also duck high attacks. It's a nice option and on CH cancels into 214K+G.

-4P+K is a high half circular that cancels into 214K+G on CH. This is a great option since you're shutting down one direction of evading.

-K+G is a high full circular. This is great too since you're not just beating their attack option but also forcing them to stop evading. This also puts your back turned which could be good or bad based on how confident you are with your backturned stance options. I'll go more into that stuff in a later post.

2P

-3P lets you cancel into 214K+G or 236KKK combo on counter hit.

 

To answer your question


So one of the guys on VFDC wanted to know what is elieen's playstyle. What makes this girl unique. Now that is actually a hard question to answer because everyone has their own way of using the character. I will be giving my own personal opinion on how eileen needs to be played in order to be effective.

First off she's fast, safe, and is a mix up god. Fear of your mixup options should be in the heart of your opponent, along with frustration from the constant poking you'll be doing. The better you're able to cancel her moves the stronger you'll be. Typically I"m looking at my opponent's bad habits and looking to set them up for huge damage to punish them for being predictable.

That said, eileen is risky, just due to the fact that she's super light now. To deal with that, you need to be relatively defensive and prepared to block everything that's thrown at you. Until you know your opponent's habits you shouldn't be throwing out too big a move. The problem with that though is that you've just limited yourself to mildly damaging pokes that sometimes leave you at frame disadvantage.

Knowing if you're fighting the kind of opponent who gives up their frame advantage or not is also key. You want to know if you can keep chucking out moves because they're going to keep blocking or if you need to actually defend because they know how to use their frames gained on block. The difficulty with answer a question of this nature is that a lot of the stuff I'm saying applies to all characters.

If I had to break eileen down to a short phrase I'd say, she's a high risk high reward character that requires you to have very good yomi and pressure skills.

 

Great posts Tricky, I am learning eileen now, just because of you. Mostly just so I can beat her,but also I think she represents one of the primary fighting tactics. True abare

 

I'm glad you're liking the posts dude. But one thing you gotta understand is abare with eileen is very risky. She can lose half her life very easy on CH. She needs to be played with a strong defense to be consistently good.

 

<span style="font-size: 20pt">Now you're at +4.</span>

11f P


Mid lvl attack
-3P will hit them for CH which you can combo into 214K+G, or preferably into 214PP, or even better 214PK for 61 points of damage. That's a nice chunk of health off an easy read. You're beating out all attacks with this choice. On normal hit though this will be lackluster without a followup

-7K+G gives you space too

High lvl attack
-K will now beat them for CH. Nice near the wall since you'll get a wall splat.

-P+K will CH and you can follow up with her P+K,PK or throw combo here. Gets you 69 points of damage if you do the PK, and you can get up to 129 if you do the half circle back throw instead of PK.

Covering your Front
-4K+G half circular which is always a good thing for eileen, but it's high. So they could duck you. So you're beating out high/mids/ and evades to your front with this move.



12f P & 12f Mids

Mid lvl attack

-3K great move to use if you expect a duck or attack since you'll be at +8. On normal hit though you'll be at 0 which isn't bad, but not great either. Also catches backdash for a stagger combo.

-3P+K good move to use especially on counter hit since you get the follow up P guaranteed. which lets you go into wari actions and cancel moves

Low lvl attack

-2K your low kick which you kinda need to have hit as a counter to leave you at 0 frames. Otherwise you're going to be on negative frames.

Covering your front

-44P will net you +6 on counter hit and +3 on normal hi, and takes 1 drink out of shun. This is not a great option until you feel confortable with being backturned.

Covering your back

-4K is great move that is +9 on CH and will put them sideturned which means they will have to duck to block your high punch. Keep note that from sideturned state your PPP2KK is a string that all will hit. You can also use PP214K+G from side turned. Further still you could go for another turning attack that will lead to some unblockable setups, but I'll go into that later. The only thing bad about this move is that it's high.

 

Ok I updated my website all the way up to guaranteed damage so I'm done writing about eileen's options on positive frames. Next up will be defensive options. I might go back and write about dealing with pushblock.

 

It's been a while since I made a new post on my blog. I have a theme for the next series of posts now. Here's the beginning.

http://tricky-eileen.blogspot.com/2012/11/oki-crushing-rising-attacks.html


Oki: Crushing Rising Attacks

So many of you have seen or used rising attacks. They're those kicks you see people use when they get up. There are two levels and three different timings for when they can come out. In training mode they're listed as slow/normal/fastest and I'll be referencing those timings in this post. This is important because based on when your opponent gets up, your crushing attack timing will change. Furthermore, if your opponent rolls to the side, rolls away from you, or dosen't roll at all will all effect the timing of their rising kick. Now your opponent can choose to not attack at all, but that is a whole different matter. For sake of simplicity your opponent for now is choosing to rising kick you all day because they aren't afraid of it. When you think of the frames, your rising kicks are only -6 on block and +3 on hit, so it's not really a huge risk for your opponent to try them against you if you're not giving them a reason to stop.

Alright, so now we understand there are a bunch of different timing for when a kick can come out, how does this help up in crushing them and getting out timing down?

First off, know that once you have learned the timing for one character, it is not going to drastically change for the rest of the cast. This isn't like punishing tech rolls. Everyone rolls on the ground at the same speed and has the same timing with their kicks. The only different is the animation and sometimes if the kick is circular or not, but this won't really play a huge roll in crushing their rising kicks. Keep in mind any attack over 21 points of damage will crush a rising kick. Also moves that have large active frame windows will be easier to crush with, like 3K, or 4K+G.

An easy way to get timings down for these crushes is to do a combo that knocks down on hit, and then see how long it takes for the cpu to get up at the fasest timing with a mid kick. For this example I'll be using eileen as my training dummy, so I'm doing combos on her. Combo I'll be using is 46P, 9K, 2P, 43P+K, 214PK. First off I like to test my combo against tech rolls that are exact and just regular and see if I can punish it with a 3K, I tested both and I can get +10 if they tech roll and I time my 3K correctly. I'll also make sure I"m testing this tech roll attempt on a dummy that is trying to evade, that way I know I've timed my tech roll punish right. Use the K~G cancel to get the cpu to give you a failed evade then do 46P in order to hit the cpu with something other than a circular so you can test this yourself.

Next I go to settings and turn the CPU to mid rising kicks, get up in place, fastest. I do my combo, and after it finishes I input 4K+G then 9K and my 9K will be timed such that the rising kick is crushed perfectly every time. No delay between your moves. I could also have used 3K then 4K+G to crush the rising kick with no delaying between moves. I could also use slight delay 6P, no delay into 4K+G and get +9 on counter hit.

Ok so now I want to test this against normal rising attack speed. Now I find the old timings don't work, they're too fast. This time I use 43P+K into 9K and it will crush without any delay in my moves. Since 9K is the slower move than 3K or 4K+G if you do 43P+K and delay just a little bit you can get 3K or 4K+G to hit without having to worry so much about timing. Alternatively you could look for another move to use for normal timing, but I think 43P+K is great since you can also catch tech rolls using the same timing here. Making Oki option selects is a powerful option, so always try to make the first move in your timing schemes a mid attack.

Finally I'll look at slow rising attacks. Here I find that using 6PP into 3K works well and I get +10 on hit with no delays between my moves. That means I get a free throw which is a big deal from much a small move really.

What comes next is repeating this same process for low kicks (if you're crushing moves only involve using high attacks like with 4K+G). However the timing will be the same. The only other options left are for your opponent to roll to the side, or to roll away from you, which both will require different timings.

You may be looking at this and think it's a lot more work than needed, but really when you're practicing your combos, why not also practice your oki crush game, and tech roll punish game? I know I find just doing combos boring, so adding in a way to keep the pressure after the combo is done, and practicing it is a lot more fun for me. There are opponents out there, good opponents, who will rising attack you all day unless you force them to stop. Hopping back using 214P+K P is great, but sometimes you're not in the position to pull that move off, or you're sure that a rising kick is coming. Why not just learn to crush the kicks when you know it's coming your way.

Spend a few rounds learning how your opponent likes to get up. Do they tech roll or do they lay there. Do they roll to the side then kick often and with what timing? Using these fillers will also make you look like you're open to a rising attack when you're not. In a sense you are faking your opponent out by making it look like there is an opening that isn't actually there. This mental pressure can not be underestimated and is a huge boost if you learn to control it and apply it at all times. I'll be posting my tests on different combos that I have and what moves you can use to time your rising attack crushing moves in the future.

 

Great stuff Tricky. I find that people like to rising attack Eileen because they want any way possible to avoid falling victim to her insane mixup game and they don't want her right in their faces. This will really help me discourage that.

One tactic I've been using as well for oki(and sometimes with an opponent who is getting too comfortable guarding strings) is to use 214P+K < 6P+K+G. The hop back avoids their rising attack, then the initial hop of monkey walk puts you right back next to your opponent, with plenty of mixup potential. Many players will realize that whiffing has put them in danger and sidestep, and you can nail them with her K+G sweep series. Now they are a lot more likely to pursue quick teching in the future, and you can mind game from there.