Moral vs Abare Play

Wanted to get some VF dialogue going about a number of different VF related topics.
This thread is for anybody who wants to bring up a subject/topic that hasn't been covered yet on the forums or just needs to be re-addressed/re-analyzed.
Here's a few examples of topics that we can talk about:

Yomi
Moral VS Abare
Lag/Offline play
Movement
DMP+K/2P
Playing to win
Unpredictability
^Just to name a few.

Moral vs Abare Play
The first topic I want to talk about is Moral VS Abare play. By addressing this subject I hope to also address the art of unpredictability, switching styles on the fly (freestyling) and how most fighters end up being predictable on both offense and defense because of the whole moral/abare mindset.

Another side topic I hope we can talk about is what's considered "good" gameplay and what's not. What I mean is that sometimes "good gameplay" all depends sometimes on who's behind the controller instead of just better decision making within the match.
I've watched a LOT of VF matches, specially Japanese VF matches and I noticed a lot of the abare and randomness that has been considered genius more because of who's playing than what was actually been done. I've seen Japanese players do things that when done by American players it gets frowned upon. Specially during VF4Evo days where 2P and DMP+K were go-to moves for top-level players.

Here's a match of Fuudo's Lion versus Chino's Brad where we get to see a good amount of "immoral" gameplay which ultimately helps that particular player become harder to read and win the match:
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OUDnOJ6TUk
Notice the "annoying" use of PPP. It broke the flow of the other player's momentum. Did it look noobish? Yes. But it was done by a top-level Japanese player so it was genius

I've found that most aggressive players attack more out of disadvantage than passive/defensive players and when I started breaking down matches and noticed that over 50% of their offense came from abare, I started to think about all of the American players who frown on abare or "random" gameplay.

I understand that there are players out there who just "exploit" their char's strengths while avoiding their char's weaknesses. Is this bad?
Is it bad to "abuse" a move that constantly connects?
You don't block low so sweeps away.
You are too linear so DMP+K city.

Is this wrong? Why because a "good" player would just evade and then launch? DMP+K is killing you, why should your opponent stop using it? Until you learn to deal with DMP+K you can't tell that player to stop using it.
I understand that some char's DMP+Ks are more powerful than others but the move is in the game.
This move is in the game for a reason. It's just another option to deal with linear/half-circular/throw pressure. I know DMP+K shouldn't avoid throws but at the right dis/adv it does and it nullifies both options.
It's just another guess. Another tool in that char's arsenal.
Outguess your opponent and you won't have to worry about it as much.

I don't have an overall consensus on how most VF players feel, just a handful of American players who hate abare and love moral... for some reason.
I love defense but it doesn't make me want to play like that. When I watch well executed offense, that excites me and makes me want to play that char. As long as there's a way to nullify that offense and the aggressor keeps guessing right, it's a beautiful thing. Imho.

The bottom line to my p.o.v. is that you can't tell people what is and isn't "real" VF.
The whole lag thing is a whole different monster and yes, that isn't true VF since move balance goes out the window a bit. Not insanely so but enough that it does alter particular char's strengths and weaknesses.
The guessing game is still intact but you can't rely on frames all of the time. Once you figure out just how much lag you're dealing with then it's ON YOU to guess correctly. YOU still have advantage. Just cuz you get hit with 2P @+12 while trying to go for a throw doesn't mean that you can't still punish. You just can't play online with the SAME tactics that you apply offline all of the time.

Anyway, I'd like to get some VF talk going and am interested in what you guys think about these and any other subjects regarding VF (online or offline).

 

For me it is all about doing what works when you can get it in. Over abusing 1 style not knowing how to apply it properly against a foe is bad but if you know how to apply it right it is good even if it seems excessive because the other player will leave themselves open for it every time. It is also important to know what style fits you best and go with it in short "Being who you are naturally and not trying to be someone you are not.".

If you like to be aggressive do so if you like defense apply more moral play but you should be able apply to either abare or moral play if you really have to even if you don't want to do it. Being knowledgeable about it even if a person don't use it much is a must as well. I personally think that a proper balance of both is needed and the best players of any game not just VF know how to master any style of play and know how to exploit it if they see it even if they prefer to be more aggressive or focus on defense more.

This is just my take anyway

 

It's just a play style at the end of the day. That's the beauty of VF is that while there are a lot of rules you can play with your own style. There isn't a specific answer to tons of situations which is what makes it fun and frustrating for some.

Dealing with loads of styles of players is what makes the game fun. Exploiting a char weakness is part of any game but it won't stop anybody whining just the same.

I hate talking about VF when i'm not actively playing it. It's like whats the point?

VF should be played offline but it's fun online too as it's still VF I guess.

I hope FS can unite us all..

 

PPP starts with a CH, and I think Fudo checks the first P and slightly delay the second P from that video somehow, such as Lau's 3P(CH)PK maybe I think.

As long as the players realize the consequence, abare is just one option, nothing special to be honest.(Unless someone enpahsized abaring is nonsafe when opponents have good defense.) The only thing bothering is inputs "in advance" online could kill the windows not supposed to be workable on aracde(offline). Which makes the aggressive side earn more advantages compare with the other one who reacts(checks) after block. The thing is like it turns out my turn to attack, but I got a CH from my opponents instead.

If fuzzy could save my ass about 75%, why do I need to randomly guess 50/50? The video also shows that Fudo took care of Brad's fuzzy at the last moment~

VF(not the only game) is just like a dancing, when both players understand what they are doing, best and fun match forever~

 

Everyone always has excuses. I know I got plenty of them.

Oh also, I just want to say that strings, stopping them in the middle, creates a different type of adv/disadv situation in itself. If a move has a followup, but stopping it short has disadvantage, you can almost rest assured that that disadvantage isn't really catered to the opponent using it the same way. It's like a disadvantage just assuring the attacker can't move as fast as the opponent can afterwards.

Also, for the defender to disrespect followups, that can often times require them giving up their own "advantage" gained from the middle of the opponents string, thus defeating the purpose.

If I stop a move short that has a followup, and my opponent wants to call my bluff, they better do it immediately or their advantage is long gone.

- on a small sidenote: one thing I noticed about my game, that I removed yesterday, was that I would dash in for throw even when the opponent can't fuzzy, and thus me dashing in makes it possible for them to fuzzy the throw. And I used to scratch my head, and cures online play.

A lot of moves that Jacky and Sarah have, consist of really long delays, that when you know how to delay them correctly, you pretty grant yourself 'advantage' on your supposed 'disadvantage' of stopping it short. Unless your opponent is down to disrespect(but if you're going to disrespect my string, you better act fastest timing or it's gone. disrespecting my string and calling my bluff is hard when I complete the shit out of my strings often enough to discourage this kind of behavior - and yes I check like a mofo).

I hope you guys understand what I'm saying.

p.s. that's why I have so much trouble with Lau.

 

I'm behind you on the points about tactics that would be called noobish by an American playing are called genius if done by a top Japanese player. I think that has more to do with assuming that the top player has made a conscious decision to make that decision, while a more unskilled player just happened to hit the buttons, or just has amazing talent.

Whatever the reason, I really like playing by gut instinct. Moves just feel right when they are the correct choice, if you guys know what I mean. There is an elation to rushing an opponent down with my eileen, even if the round is lost, the fight was just so much more fun than the moral style.

I still find it highly important to know moral play style though. When one chooses to break the system, one needs to know what they're actually breaking. I like to outsmart my opponent so I'll 50/50 all day long over the safer option of %75 chance of blocking with a defensive option.

Some may call that arrogance, I call it fun.

 

Personally, I don't try to play morally in any game that I have played. I always try to do the most unexpected thing, because most people have a split second lag time when they see something they weren't expecting, which allows me to capitalise. I don't mind doing 5 low punches in a row, or use other "uncool" tactics, as long as I'm putting up a fight.

That doesn't mean I don't see the value in moral play. If I'm at frame disadvantage and my opponent only wants to do fast execution moves, practically any attack I try will eat a counter, so it's better to just defend(block/fuzzy/duck/evade).

However, just because you're at advantage doesn't mean you can try doing your big 37 frame megalauncher and then complain that you got jabbed out of it. No, your opponent can try any counterattack he feels like. It's up to you to keep smacking him with safe, quick hits so he knows he can't get away with abare.


One thing I found interesting is that you never get discussions of the Virtua Fighter definition of moral play in most other games, for example Street Fighter. In Street Fighter, you can be at massive frame advantage and yet practically anything you do that doesn't keep the opponent in blockstun or hitstun can be easily countered by his invincible retardo uppercut thingie. Thus abare in SF is a much stronger option than in VF, so much so that people don't even think of NOT using abare in their play.

It's only in VF that we discuss the idea of abare being "inappropriate" at all. That being said, abare has become stronger in more recent versions of VF because we have so many moves with sabakis and other special properties. Although we don't have a counterattack as effective as a Dragon Punch yet, we do have some nasty ones for particular situations.

Luckily, in VF there is no move that you can just throw out and it beats practically everything the opponent can possibly do AND puts you at advantage(Shoryuken FADC), but there are particular counter moves which will beat particular strings of attack, and not taking these into account when you're attacking an opponent who has these counter moves is just silly. It's like thinking Ken won't try to uppercut through your blockstring because it's "immoral."


The only similar "moral" in a fighting system I have heard of is in Fencing, where the person who opens with an attack gets right of way, and even if the opponent successfully hits him as well, the one with right of way gets the point. This encourages practicioners to take the initiative rather than turtle up.



On covering up weaknesses and exploiting strengths, that's a very natural thing to do. I do a martial art called Naginatado, and our advantage is we have much longer range than swords. However, our disadvantage is the swordsman can hit a hell of a lot faster than we can.

In this first video, the Naginata keeps the Kendo practicioner away most of the fight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrubj6SMsnE

This second video shows what happens when we let people get in too close.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--AwpKMGnbo

So you can bet, I'll abuse my range and keep that guy away from me as much as I can rather than get whacked over the head multiple times.

In fighting games, if there's a way for me to keep hitting you without giving you a chance to hit me, I'll gladly take it. If however, the game makes one particular move or strategy too overpowered such that it becomes the only way to play competitively(Smackdown vs Raw's running spear + headbutt moveset) then I wouldn't really play that game seriously. I like VF because it rewards proactive aggressive play styles, but also allows less common tactics to be viable.



Just a note though. I know the theory behind frame data but have no idea how many frames of execution or recovery there are in any moves at all. I have always gone by gut instinct as to what moves are safe or unsafe, purely through experimentation. That is one reason why I abare a lot. I'm still at a level where I'm finding out more about the game, so sometimes, I just want to find out more about certain move recoveries. Can I standing jab Kage after blocking his 9K+G? Awww crap. Maybe not. Holy ****! It's safe?!

That means I'm not a very high level player in this game, so please take my comments as coming from a person not at top level.

 

My 2 Cents..... JUST DO YOU!!!


Fuck what Niggas think cause everybody is a hypocrite. If im at -8 and you failed to punish me several times correctly then im gonna go abare if it yielded results in certain situations.
If i gave a fuck about my opponents and what they were thinking then i would've never improved and hold my self to thier standards. I can go Moral or Abare shit don't matter anymore. To Hell with Catering to losers I PLAY to WIN and have fun on the side. If you feel i 2p alot quit motherfucker.

 

Tony to answer some of your questions:

I would say no way and go right ahead. Exploiting your characters strengths is exactly what you should do. If a character has a strong sabaki or unique technique go ahead and use it. If a character has a particularly weak moves avoid using them.

The weakness in this is that it creates a basic style of "cookie cutter" player. These players can definitely be effective, though a strong opponent will know how to beat players like that since there's little creativity involved.

No way Tony, go right ahead. It might take out the enjoyment of playing VF for your opponent though so I would approach with some caution. Some people play for the wins, others play purely for the enjoyment. If you know someones struggling with a move, point it out to them and try to help them overcome the move. Both of you might get stronger as a result of your opponent switching up.

Keep on using DM P+K, keep on using PPP or other techniques that work. I'm sure you've seen some Akira players who will abuse 46P+K on players who like to techroll.

There's really nothing wrong with immoral play once you've got most of the basics of the system and you character down. Fuudo's immoral style was genius and on purpose.

It'll always be more fun to play something with another player who appreciates the mind games and the depth involved in VF. It's really about finding people who share a similar passion about a hobby.

I don't have much else to add to the discussion, except that if you play immoral you'll often find that your opponent will play immoral right back because they'll pick up on it right away!

I have a video that shows this against some high level Japanese players. Due to a little side story, I originally made this video private, but changed it to public since I thought it might apply well here. I struggled to find something that included some names you might recognize like Shou *cough*. Shou used to/(still?) have a loud mouth and loved to announce that he would beat X player before winning. I got in a nice groove after Shu and in the clip you can see some pretty strong abare tactics from Shou. I threw out a lot of immoral play and it netted me a lucky streak and large smile from the opponents. Immoral play can be nothing skillful, though entertaining to watch.

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Just as a side note, you could play VF5 vanilla Pai in a similar manner, though it will probably get picked apart quickly.

You wrote an awesome post and what an amazingly humble attitude. El_Tweleve you're definitely on the right track of experimentation, keep on playing and trying what works for you.

Tony, you're doing a great job on keeping the conversations flowing on VFDC.

 

@Azusabo, that was a great set of matches man.

Oh I also just want to add, that the whole Moral vs Abare thing, seems to have been inflated because of online playing. Offline, if somebody beat on you with whatever style, then you don't have the lingering lag excuse to bust out, it's just a 'my bad' for missing the windows type deal. It gets really hard to tell though, sometimes it's best to just ignore what someone is saying and just play.

 

This is exactly why I like playing offline Slide. For people who play a lot by feeling, myself included, it becomes very hard to ascertain if a loss is due to missing a window or if there was funky lag issues.

Yes lag affects everyone, but at least offline, the feeling never changes. With online, one has to adjust not only to the player, but to the lag going on too. That extra little big just eff's with my game way too much for my liking.

@El_Twelve : Great post man, I look forward to watching you progress.

@Azusabo : Loved the video, that made me hype for some VF4evo. That play speed there was blazing.

@Slide : Nice to see you posting buddy

 

Good to have balance of both morale and abare imo. As both can be used to condition the other player to react how you want them to. Lots of abare can force jabs or attacks to come without delay, and morale can provoke delaying of moves and throws. Unless they're just hella random regardless of what's going on. Those random attacking players (besides just the plain good ones) are the hardest for me to win against cause I never know what to expect. Abare ftw imo.

Lmao.

 

Thanks to all of you who replied. I'm hoping more people will chime in as we discuss other topics.
I named the thread VF Talk because I was trying to get some talk going about the a lot of the things that go through our minds before, during and after we play.

I guess I coulda called the thread VF Philosophy but I'm not sure that title would have fit the thread either. For those of you still interested and wanting to engage in some VF talk or maybe just teach/ask about VF ideas and lessons learned, please share. Sometimes something you learned from a really good player, something that made your game better, will help others even more in leveling up.

Jide, I gotta agree with you that there's really nothing anybody can do to stop another player from bitching and whining. The thing is we all do it at some point or another but we learn, grow and move on... sadly, some are still stuck with the same ridiculous, elitist mindset that has driven away all but the hardcore fans.
At the end of the day, VF is a FIGHTING game. That's why I enjoy watching other fighting games where people fight. There's not so much technical and right/wrong mindset towards playstyles. There's just a mindset of "I will win. Whatever you try to do, I will find a way to overcome it and win."
Ultimately, we all play different and we all develop different ways to see and play the game. These views evolve over time and as time goes on we're supposed to improve... but sometimes it's hard to see another player struggling with the game when he's devoted years to it already. It makes me feel like helping them get out of that mindset. Not cause I want to save the world or anything but because our community is so small that it's almost like a family and when you see, for example, your cousin not being able to ride a bike even though he's 30 years old and has owned about 5 different bikes over the past 10 years... well, I get the feeling that if I can reach him, I can help him ride his bike better. And then we can ride together without fear of him crashing into me or something... weird analogy, I know but I hope you guys are following

I can't write a guide on how to play better/ evolve/ change your mindset in order to grow and level up because I'm not that good myself BUT I'm hoping that with the help of a few of you guys, this thread becomes a place to share ideas, mindsets, lessons learned and VF epiphanies that helped you or even others move on to the next level.

In the longest job I've ever held it was embedded in my brain to "Adapt and overcome". That's why "shenanigans" rarely bothered me up until I experienced DMP+K combined with online.
If I hadn't changed my mindset about that move (I still hardly use it except to throw somebody off their game or for retaliation purposes but now I respect the move and what it's in the game for) if I hadn't learned how to deal, adapt and overcome, I woulda been still stuck in the same "fuck dmp+k and every player that uses it" mentality. My game would have stayed at the same crappy level it was at a year ago.

I hate hearing about how VF players are whiny and/or elitist. If we don't change our mindset, if we don't evolve as players, even if FS does come out... our community won't grow and flourish.

I believe that FS is coming to consoles and we're going to get an influx of new players. These players are going to find new things to exploit and take advantage of within the game, basically these new players are going to FIGHT.
But to not play them, to avoid them or to write them nasty messages is just going to hurt the growth of our small VF scene.

I like what a lot of you guys wrote and I will be replying more soon. I don't have a moral or abare mindset because really I'm more of a yomi based player. If you want to see me evade more don't use throws and don't use full circulars

Azuzabo, thanks! Great vid man. I've never met you but I have learned a lot from you. Thank you.

 

I think many times people really hide behind "moral vs abare" as a self-serving justification for how a set went.

The question i would ask, is how long is the window where a decision can be considered moral or abare? I think this window is dramatically over-exaggerated in the mind of the person playing. Realistically, isn't there only a fraction of a second where moral/abare even applies? Of course this window is extended slightly by lag. But, the point is, a -5 disadvantage lasts 5 frames. If the advantaged player hesitates for 5 frames then whatever comes next should no longer be thought of in terms of moral or abare. It's a neutral situation, and whatever moves/options are chosen are simply decisions. It is as nonsensical as saying player x started the round with an abare sweep kick!! I think a lot of times people consider their own failure to react quickly as abare by their opponents. Of course, if you are a competitive person it is very hard to reconcile this during the heat of battle.

 

Abare and Moral are about how one tends to play. It's not about each individual choice that's made. It's the conglomeration of choices made over a set of matches.

 

always disrepsect everything at all times

anyone who thinks otherwise is a SCRUB

 

Having a balance between the two sounds like a good way to me. Almost everyone seems to abare to some degree. Even the ones who complain about it sometimes lol. I've been told I abare alot but i've been working on lessing it for when people figure ways around my moves. Just sometimes it might take me longer to adapt than others lol. I just like using alot of pressure so I guess thats where the abare comes in XP. There are ways around it just like everything else.

 

Moral works against someone who abares too much.
Abare works against someone who plays too moral.