Move priority

Discussion in 'The Vault' started by Pinkgirl, Dec 18, 2001.

  1. Pinkgirl

    Pinkgirl Well-Known Member

    Playing against a Shun (the one from Bugis; very defensive player) recently I discovered that some of his moves seem to have "more priority" over other moves (e.g. I was very sure my Jacky's f,f+K came out first, yet one of Shun's kicks executed @ a later time hit me). (Hmm, I hope this is a correct observation...)

    Firstly, there is such a thing as one move having "more priority" over another right?

    Secondly, if that's the case how do "priority" and frames (i.e. execution time) integrate? If say, Player A executes Move A at Time A, and Player B executes Move B at Time B (which is later than Time A), but Move B has "greater priority" than Move A, whose move will "win"?

    Lastly, am I making sense?
     
  2. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    Whether a move hits or not depends on whether the polygons making up the attacking hand or foot collide with some part of your opponent's body... so the fastest high attack in the world will never beat a low attack since the high attack is hitting nothing but the air above your head while the low attack is smacking the opponent's ankles.

    As for priority... it may work like the street fighter games. I don't think anyone here has the inside track on exactly what goes into the design of the VF games, but in capcom games each move is given a hit mask. This is an unseen box that covers the striking fist or foot... it determines which parts of your body can hit your opponent, and another box determines which parts of your body may be hit while you attack. Some moves in SF are notorious for having huge hit boxes (like M.Bison's low fierce punch in Super Turbo ... it looks like it attacks straight ahead, but it will actually hit a short ways above him and a little bit behind him too). Others are well known for have a very small area of vulnerability during attacks, i.e. ryu and ken's dragon punches are almost impossible to interrupt because their whole body is protected from attack by a large 'invincibility box' (I dunno what else to call it).

    If you own a copy of Darkstalkers 3 you can actually turn on the hit masks and see them on the screen, which gives you a better idea of what sort of priority a move has. In VF it's pretty much just trial and error, although having frame advantage does help a lot.
     
  3. Shang

    Shang Well-Known Member

    Creed why don't you share the stuff you are smoking??! =)
    The thing that makes the DP "high priority" is that it has like zero execution time. the instance you press the button, it's in detection. Therefore in order to "hit someone out" of a DP your move has to be in detection while the DPer is entering the motion. Remember he can't block while doing f,d,d/f.
    Which is also the reason why "waking up" with a DP is so effective. On top of this, pre-super turbo, DP renders you completely invincible on the way up. capcom changed this in ssf2t and made ryu/ken's head somewhat vulnerable . vf has the same basic concept adding a z-axis.

    > ryu and ken's dragon punches are almost impossible to interrupt because their whole body is protected from attack by a large 'invincibility box' (I dunno what else to call it).
     
  4. Hayai_JiJi

    Hayai_JiJi Well-Known Member

    That's why O.Ken and O.Ryu are bastards they still have the old invincible on the way up dragon punch. It also recovers really fast.
     
  5. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    shang, you're dead wrong. The DP could execute in 100000 frames and its invincibility would still be defined by hit boxs. Every fast attack isn't automatically invincible, and every slow attack isn't vulnerable. Ken's DP in in hyper fighting is a good example. Do a fierce dragon punch. Now have someone try to kick you out of it early. No go. Try to have them kick you out if it in the middle. No go. Try to have them kick you out of it when Ken is waaaaay at the top of the screen at the very highest point that the DP will hit. IT WILL NEVER WORK. Because ken's whole body doesn't have a single hittable spot on it. It doesn't matter if you have a monster priority move and hit him in the chest area, or the ribs, or the knee, or even the bottom of his foot. You will not touch him. It's got nothing to do with speed.

    Go rent darkstalkers and see for yourself. Or ask any serious SF player.
     
  6. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    Priority, in 2D fighters, is such a loosely used word. Priority explains which attack will win when they're both in hit detection at the same time. However, in 2D fighters, an attack with 'good priority' is usually one that is fast and relatively safe when thrown out. In most 2D fighter cases, when two attacks hit eachother at the same time, both sides take the hit (trade). There are, of course, attacks with invulnerability (or rather, lack of a hit area) which will beat another attack which is executing at the same time.

    In the scenario PinkGirl is describing, I don't think it's a question of priority but more to do with execution time of attacks. Unless we have frame information, it's hard to really say that it's just a case of Shun's attack (whatever it was) being faster than Jacky's punt kick (f,f+K), but that's what it sounds like to me. Just because you execute an attack first that's no guarantee that you'll win the exchange. If his attack executes faster than yours, then chances are he'll interrupt you.

    If you look around in the VF3 section you'll see documents describing various formulae, one which is used to determine 'priority' of attacks. That might go to some way in understanding priority in the scope of VF.
     
  7. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    My spin on what may have happend to Pink Girl is that Jacky's punt may have already went thru it's collision detection phase (missing Shun) then Shun's attack hit Jacky's extened leg. I've had this happend with Sarah's punt kick a few times.
     
  8. Shang

    Shang Well-Known Member

    invincibility defines the area of your character's body that will not register a hit detection from any attack. the "hit box" is the area of hit detection of an attack. they are completely different things creed, it doesn't make much sense when you say the hit box defines invincibility... I mean.. you are either invincible or you aren't right??
    This conversation is about move priority and i'm saying what makes a Dragon Punch high priority is because it's has zero execution time. remember you only have a "hit box" when you are in detection, not during execution or recovery. The reason why the DP in pre-super turbo is so good is because the moment you press the button you have a “hit box†and it also makes you invincible. This changed in Super Turbo, capcom took away the invincibility while execution and hit box remained the same. Now anyone who played Super Turbo a bit knows it's possible to kick someone out of a waking up DP. Why? because in the first frames of a DP the head is open to attacks. Even without the invincibility portion the DP still has very good priority because it has no execution…

    Going back to your comment of “DP executes in 100000 frames.†If so the DP would have Zero priority because it'll be interrupted every time.
    To response to your go try turbo (aka hyper fighting): ( rude mode) No fucking shit creed!!! turbo is pre super turbo, and I said DP renders you complete invincible on the way up!! You can’t hit someone when they are invincible. (off) Actually they nerfed the DP in Super but it's hard to consider that a real game.
    So you are dead wrong with the comment "It's got nothing to do with speed". Imagine this in vf terms: a move that has 2 frames execution time that hits high level and a move that has 100 frames execution that hits every level? Which one would be a super move? Priority has everything to do with speed dude! Not to discredit the importance of the hit box, but priority is more than that.
    =) Be nice. Keep talking nicely.
     
  9. jackybrothas

    jackybrothas Well-Known Member

    yea speed has a lot to do with it...... kinda like in streetfighter 2 when i crouch jab rapidly to interrupt blanka's rolling ball attack.
     
  10. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    agghhhhh...you aren't understanding me. What you're saying is that the game ONLY has hit boxes (boxes that define what parts of your body hit the other person).

    I'm saying that during every attack there are TWO boxes.
    ONE box says "this is where you can hit the other person" ... like ryu's DP says his arm can hit you, but his legs can't touch you at all. You can't get hit by ryu's DP if you jump into his legs as he rises into the air.

    the OTHER BOX says "this is where you can be struck by other attacks"

    Ryu's DP is invincible because it has a hit box all around his arm, and nothing at all around the rest of his body. His legs can't hit you and they can't be hit.

    But Zangief's lariat in the earlier games has a hit box around his fists, and what SFers call an 'attack box' around his head and shoulders, meaning the head and shoulders can be hit by a jumpkick or whatever. He doesn't have the attack box around his midsection or legs, and that's why you can't fireball him and in later versions you can't hit him with some low attacks.

    As for staying nice.. .I'm nice to people who don't talk out of their ass and say "what are you smoking" when they have no idea what they're saying. I've known how the SF priority system works for years now, and I double checked it in #capcom to be sure. There are hit boxes and attack boxes, both.

    And you're STILL WRONG about the speed. Capcom decides the priority of every attack, and if they want to give a really slow attack really high priority, they will. The jaguar kick is a great example of this. You can't claim that it doesn't have very high priority, but it's slow as fuck. Bison's low fierce is another one. It's damned near equal to a dragon punch if someone jumps on you in super turbo, but it doesn't come out anywhere near 'instantly'. It's prioriity and bison's vulnerability are both defined by capcom. If it were just defined by how fast an attack hits you, then why can any retarded jumpkick stop elena's scratch wheel (DP+Kick?) while a dragon punch still retains invincibility? Because capcom decided to make scratch wheel suck by making elena's legs, head, and shoulder hittable.

    If you don't agree with what I said, that's ok. I'm not gonna argue with you any more. All you have to do is ask a serious capcom gamer to explain it to you. A half dozen people all said there are both hit and vulnerability masks to me and I can produce the log if you want.
     
  11. nycat

    nycat Well-Known Member

    Re: The FAQ on VF4 Jacky's f,f+K (66K)

    PinkGirl wrote Playing against a Shun (the one from Bugis; very defensive player) recently I discovered that some of his moves seem to have "more priority" over other moves (e.g. I was very sure my Jacky's f,f+K came out first, yet one of Shun's kicks executed @ a later time hit me). Here is the answer to your question:
    <font color=white>Jacky Vf4 f,f+K (66K)</font color=white> “Punt Kick†or “Dashing Kick†is a finisher. Pinkgirl, you will find this move at the end of combos for Jacky not at the beginning or middle of combo or flowchart sequence. I suggest a read of BigCat’s cogent Lion Vf2, Vf3tb and recently his thoughts on Vf4 Lion to help you better understand the sequence of building flowcharts and combos.
    Below are three uses for Jacky's 66K where no interuption will ever take place in VF4 :
    P+KP -> f,f+K ->(66K)

    D,d/f+P (2_3P) -> FC,P (2_P) -> f,f+K (66K)

    And Jacky’s P+K,P the Bitter Witch Slap can end with either -> f,f+K or -> u/b+K.
    His flip kick is obviously easier. The dashing Punt requires an additional stick motion.

    http:www.geocities.com/nycat.geo/Lion has BigCat’s Vf4 combo builder in Big Ones file. <a target="_blank" href=http://www.virtuaproject.com>http://www.virtuaproject.com</a> has all the VF4 BigCat files. All are worthy of a read. The best Jacky stuff is found here easily by searching all of CREWNY posts and reading the Jacky stuff from November and December 2001 here at <font color=red>VFDC.</font color=red>
    PinkGirl please understand what I'm saying: You can't put your silk panties on over your jeans and you can't use f,f+K with jacky VF4 unless it is the tail to a combo or you are <font color=blue>Sifu Master of the 64 Chambers of VF4</font color=blue>
     
  12. Pinkgirl

    Pinkgirl Well-Known Member

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    My spin on what may have happend to Pink Girl is that Jacky's punt may have already went thru it's collision detection phase (missing Shun) then Shun's attack hit Jacky's extened leg. I've had this happend with Sarah's punt kick a few times.

    <hr></blockquote> So that's what they call it eh? "Collision detection phase"? Cool. You learn something new everyday... /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif (My last one was "scanlines", quoted from Creed's reply to the post bout resolution. lol)

    This was what was suggested to me by Andrew, but I didn't think that the punt kick had missed - it looked more like it was "just starting" and that Shun's move was somehow "faster"... so maybe.........like what Myke says... "priority" has everything to do with how fast a move is (i.e. execution frames)...
     
  13. Pinkgirl

    Pinkgirl Well-Known Member

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    In the scenario PinkGirl is describing, I don't think it's a question of priority but more to do with execution time of attacks.

    <hr></blockquote> So priority would equate execution time then? This would mean there would be no such thing as whether a move has "more priority" or not; the only issue @ hand would be "how fast a move is"... correct?
     
  14. MrWhite

    MrWhite Well-Known Member

    Well it is <font color=white>virtua fighter</font color=white>, except for the weird gravity laws everything else is pretty straightforward.
    Physics pretty much translate RL in where someone coming with a right hook will be interrupted by a left straight(as long as the left straight was quicker that is, probably not as strong as the hook). One thing is the follow through which should have momentum and register some damage even if interrupted (unless its blocked, avoided or cold counteracted).Also they're missing double hitting in VF. I really miss those from 2Ds. PKs sequences all day would be hell...

    And as for SF games, did you guys stop playing at SF3? Whats all the talk about super turbo? That is some old shit. Seen CVS2 recently guys? Everything can be interrupted . Which is fair by my standards.
     
  15. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    So priority would equate execution time then? This would mean there would be no such thing as whether a move has "more priority" or not; the only issue @ hand would be "how fast a move is"... correct?

    I think priority does exist in VF3, if not 4... remember how rising attacks beat every single thing (just about) in VF2 and 3? That's priority. Sarah could do a d/f+K+G sweep perfectly timed to hit you during a high rising attack in VF3, and nothing would happen, it'd pass right through the opponent's legs. Now someone will say "except except rising attacks are special that way!@" ... remember that someone was whining about Lau's f,d+K? That's another move with serious priority. It'll beat sidekicks and pass harmlessly under high rising attacks. Ditto Sarah's back turned d+K, it was a favorite Yupa trick to use it just as you did your rising attack, at which point neither person gets hit, but then Sarah recovers first and throws the riser.

    Now that I think about it, maybe priority is just a simple matter of "my attack is hitting from way far away and yours can't touch me". In the sarah TT sweep situation, rising sweeps and sidekicks are passing over sarah's skinny leg, and I think you need to hit her body to be able to stop the attack. Ditto the way akira's dashing elbows have traditionally beaten punches.... akira ducks a little bit as he dashes, and you can't punch that elbow, it'll win every time... and you can't punch his face since he's hunkered down... so the only solution is an attack with enough range to hit akira's body, and it has to hit Akira before his elbow is fully extended.

    Well, enough on that, snxxxxx. Some moves are pretty well known for beating other moves in VF.. be aware of moves that seem to go againt common sense I guess. For what it's worth, Jacky's puntkick isn't totally invincible, I've seen two Jacky players trade hits on it ;)
     
  16. Hayai_JiJi

    Hayai_JiJi Well-Known Member

    SF3 rules but so does Super Turbo overall I think Turbo just has more depth. CvS2 is just really boring
     
  17. nycat

    nycat Well-Known Member

    while frame rate data is schetchy for Vf4 most any move that rewards with 30 points of damage is going to "come out" slower than a 10 point move. it is tempting for three reasons though: it takes away drunl points from jiji, it can be a combo starter on stun or MC and it does set up OTB since it causes a fall down when it does MC.
    I'm still in school wit ya. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif
     
  18. MrWhite

    MrWhite Well-Known Member

    "CvS2 is just really boring"

    You sound like how most people comment on VF4. Dont forget the substantial difference of cash flow running into both games.


    "SF3 rules but so does Super Turbo overall I think Turbo just has more depth"

    Oh no... Turbo does not have more depth. Maybe you liked it better, but forget that. Timing got much harder since alpha/zero 2 (and that means everything that came after). Might of seemed real hard to pull off Fei's Triple Float butterfly kick back in the day (in turbo), but it isnt anymore...We were learning back then and probably why it seems deeper and you attach alot of sentimental value to it. The fact remains its much harder to fight someone that has a CVS2 character than one from Turbo. The added tremendous character move arsenal, therefore possibilities, therefore depth. Not to mention the engine is the most refined of all fighting games (the "best" engine is a matter of taste and another issue). Two of the most experienced companies, Capcom and SNK, created a platform where most of the educated fights (meaning : they arent learning to do moves or learning combos...)occur, on an engine that carries the weight and experience of all its predecessors...yeah, your right, its not Turbo.
     
  19. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    Take it to general, guys. I'm falling asleep here /versus/images/icons/mad.gif
     
  20. Llanfair

    Llanfair Well-Known Member

    Re: The FAQ on VF4 Jacky's f,f+K (66K)

    /me takes bong.
    /me inhales...

    ahh...NOW I understand nycat's post...

    I'm sorry, nycat, but I have to completely and 100% disagree with you on this one. Jacky's punt kick has got to be one of the best okizeme moves in the game. Well used properly, it can punish rising attacks. And huge bonus to VF4 is that the sit down stagger you get when the punt kick hits for a MC. Using ff+K in floats is cool too, but by no means should the move be limited there - it has, IMO, much better uses in a ground game.

    cheers,
     

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