need brad advice versus keep-away

First of all i'd like to say i'm new to VF5 Brad. I did try to learn him in Evo and quit. For the record i think he seems stronger than before.

So yesterday i was playing on XBL against Dai Bison's Kage. I was getting my ass whopped and normally i wouldn't mind because afterall he is a better player than me. But then i stumbled across some other random Kage players on XBL and still couldn't manage to win. Then against some shun and jacky players. XBL is funny sometimes, strings me up with the same character, some days are Aoi and wolf days, others are kage and shun days.

Anyway, seems like i have a major problem dealing with keep away tactics.

Whenever my kage opponent scores the first hit he can safely sit back, wait to see me move in to even the score and then do cartwheel/flopkick/some other move with heavy damage and lots of active frames.

Brad seems like he needs to be "in your face" to deal his damage and i don't know how to get inside my opponents personal space if he doesn't want me to. I tried searching Brad's subforum but the only move ralative to range and spacing was this one which unfortunately talks about Brad's own keep away game. Which, while interesting, is useless if i'm at disadvantage trying to move in before the timer runs out.

I'd greatly appreciate any advice, no matter how trivial it might seem to an experienced Brad player. Please don't be afraid to go into detail; i'd like to think i'm just new to Brad, not completely clueless. It's just that when i'm playing vanessa or lion people don't dream of pulling the spacing game on me. Hell, even with my "what command list?" akira and jeffry i don't fall for that, a couple of /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif respectively usually deter most of my opponents.

Back on topic, here's how i tried approaching those opponents who tried to keep away with my fledgeling brad (and what went wrong):

ducking /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif was my first reaction since i'm spoiled by vanessa's and lion's mid crescents. However Brad's has really poor range (and even worse recovery on whiff).

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif was my second reaction, a trick i picked up from playing characters with a delayable pkp string. Unfortunately Brad's third hit is not *that* delayable, while the recovery is long.

Long Ducking /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/ /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif mixups were my third reaction ...FFS they telegraph even more than vanessa's tornado kick! I got cartwheeled even more.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif / /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif mixups was something i tried while grasping at straws. I thought "fine, you'll do your magic cartwheels i'll do my magic turnkick, let's see who wins". I thought wrong. Getting counterhit in the back hurts.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif) was when i started to exasperate and thought to myself "screw this, it's like playing tekken all over again" and suddenly i remebered how in T5 i used Bruce's b+4,3(,4) string to get close. Well, even though it looks quite similar, this ain't no Tekken string, it gets interrupted at any point.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is not like Aoi's kpk - Brad doesn't seem to advance significantly while doing this. It's actually nice if you want to keep an opponent away though, stuffs ram happy wolfs and groin kick gohs for example.

I tried dashing/crouchdashing to get closer but that didn't work. Maybe Brad *requires* boxstepping to play effectively?

Here's what i didn't try:

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif / /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif / /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif are delayable but have poor recovery even if the string is not completed. That said, the third string seems to travel a bit further and, now that i'm looking at the command list, has the option of going into ducking/slipping which might be worth looking into.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif frames-wise this looks quite nice, high-mid, safe, options for ducking/slipping but i don't think it advances enough.

Sway Back /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif even though it's from sway back, this string seems to advance quite a bit.

There you have it, i think i've broken down my problem as elaborately as possible. Maybe i'm a total n00b, dunno ...HALP PLZ!!

 

From my limited experience of playing Brad myself, I found he has plenty of options to get in on a opponent.

Some things:

66p+k->p: since the first hit travels pretty far, you can use it by itself to get in (I'm not a big fan of strings to get in on someone anyway, too risky), then hit-confirm and throw out the second hit and go into slip/duck.

4k+gk: Even though I just said I don't like strings to get in on people, this one is pretty nice (still kind of risky, though). You can delay the second hit quite a bit, so it's nice to just intentionally whiff the first hit, and then check out if you wanna go for the second hit or not.

4k: If it wasn't for the annoying command when dashing in and it's f'd up hitboxes (evasive characters love this move /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif ), I'd use this all day, I think it has a pushback on CH, so I don't know what you should do when that happens. Great range and can go into slip/duck.

Phasing Turn: This advances quite a bit by itself and you have a nice mixup of mid/low/throw afterwards. If you find yourself getting interrupted when going into phasing turn (people getting scared of the mixup and rushing in, or something like that), you can just go into sway and use p to get a nice combo (and you'd be right on top of them ).

If they start interrupting you, you can also start playing a whiffpunishment game using 3p+k->p and 4k.

Hope this helps!

 

Also never forget about the Offensive Move. Brad's OM P has a really tricky animation, especially if you do it with his back toward the screen it's pretty hard to see the difference between OM and OM P.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif also has very good recovery, it's one of the best moves to go into stance from.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif: remember to use the back turned moves. BT /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif travels very far and BT /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif crushes throws as it recovers in BT (weird but true) netting nice CH head crumples.

Another long range move that hasn't been mentioned is the excellent slip left /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (the overstep kick with advantage on block). Mix this bugger in there as well it recovers mighty fast leaving an opponent little time to react. Like everything on the list it could be dodged though.

The other approach:
You're right that it kinda turns into Tekken with Brad. Dash in and out and plug a random /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif in there at times to guide your opponent back to a wall or the edge of the ring. Don't try to force hits, Tekken has way bigger stages than VF does, if you play right (ie patiently), they're bound to run out of space.

Remember you have two half circulars, one left and one right in /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (input as /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif if you must). Especially that latter one can crush many moves because it has longer range than it looks, does good damage and is special high. You can use these to control which way the opponent goes.

Weird but sometimes useful: slip right /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is very deceptive, its fast and recovers almost instantly (slip right /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is -1 on block!), you might be able to use this to lure someone in even if /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif doesn't work for your opponent.

 

this is true..
because brad has NO redicolous range moves like most characters do (like kage and shuns torpedo like kick/headbutts)
or anything thats has a HUGE hit radius its sometimes extremely frustrating to get in.

i just fought a jacky who ABUSED THE CRAP out of his round house mid kick. i cudnt get in at all it was insane. got hit with it every round...

the key however is to stop playing there game.
you CANT beat there move, and once u accept that you can come up with creative solutions to win out anyway.
do fake outs where u appear to be at disadvantage but infact you have enough frames to CH them in the face. dash in and out so they attack when your not in range. dash in evade, stuff like that.

BUTTT when u do have to approach here are some moves that i prefer
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif , HORRIBLE if used wrong, but amazingly sexy when used right.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif amazing hitbox. beats out most attacks. its like a wall of pure brad punishment. watch out though, sucks if you get blocked.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif this move has huge range and is pretty safe. on CH it causes head crumble which is nice. Basically you use this move RANDOMLY so that they run into your kick.

and as someone mentioned, OM P is amazing.
.

btw the key to most approaches is coming in UNEXPECTEDLY. approach when there approaching so they run into your move. and its always nice to simply RUN AT THEM and grab and/or foward hold kick them in the face.
no one expects you to randomly CHARGE at them with a grab and/or kick and since brads run speed is so fast its even harder to deal with.
anyway GL with ur brad!

 

OHH AND OF COURSE if your good with timing you can phase shift in there.

use the evade property of it to get in close and then unleash any of the powerful (i prefer the regular K knee) phase shift moves.

 

It's important to use slipping left /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. It's a 23f move, BUT it's half circ. and gives +5 on GUARD!, when you hit on counter you have /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif guaranteed. Use it and abuse it whenever you have those 23f to spare.
Phasing turn will dodge some moves, and PT /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif crushes lows (special high) and is safe on guard. Also PT /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif staggers crouching opponents and lets you go into more slips. Finally not so safe PT /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif hits low, dodges highs and knocks down on normal hit. USE PT! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif (BTW, I don't use it often, but PT /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif also gives adv. on guard)

 

wtf is phase shift

ps. Remember that you can cancel dash forward with guard. Dash in evade is however often more applicable if you get the timing right. Problem is that its harder for the dasher to time his attack correctly, but it can be done so that you interrupt them.

Also practise your distance management. Find the critical distance when you need to initiate the attack for it to interruptthe opponent. If opponent does a backdash he is vulnerable to extended attack like dash->attack if you do it correctly. You cant block while backdashing. Unfortunately Brad doesnt have as great moves for this as Akiras SDE or doublepalm.

I suppose you could try LD K+G for frequent backdashers. However, it only works if you catch them while backdashing, otherwise they attack you out of it. Timing is the key.

If opponent has already backed away and is waiting you to go to them, you can just walk forward. Its easier to block on reflex this way.

 

?

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif might be the kick with the longest range in the game, just an insane hit box. Plus when it's blocked you can just do BT cd away and avoid everything.

 

I think it's a new VF5R move XD


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Warning, Spoiler: <input type="button" class="form-button" value="Show" onclick="if (this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div').getElementsByTagName('div')[0].style.display != '') { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div').getElementsByTagName('div')[0].style.display = '';this.innerText = ''; this.value = 'Hide'; } else { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div').getElementsByTagName('div')[0].style.display = 'none'; this.innerText = ''; this.value = 'Show'; }" /></div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div style="display: none;">Seriously, nice reply. I'm not very good at movement yet but it is a great tool for cutting distance, creating distance and baiting.
Erdraug, it's important to use movement if you fight people who try to play keep away. There are other types of movement that will help you cut the distance such as OM and jumping. You can even attack out of these but you're more vulnerable while you do these than safer movement such as dashing/crouch-dashing/SS cancels.

PT is good but it doesn't pay off as much as good movement. I suggest that you force keep-away players to come to you.
Brad's keep away game is pretty good and once you get them out of their comfort zone by taking the lead in damage and doing to them what they do to you, it starts to mess with them a little.
For example: if you fight a DMP+K scrub and you are playing with a character with a decent DMP+K, do it back to them A LOT (lol, it's a lot of fun), but do it smart, if you do it right, you'll see how they start to do DMP+K a lot less.
It depends what character you are using of course. If you try that on Wolf, he will prob DMP+K you out of your DMP+K and if you duck his DMP+K throw online, chances are you won't be able to do much except 2P and he's just going to do DMP+K aagain.
If you escape the DMP+K throw he won't be in that bad of a spot so chances are he will just DMP+K again... and again... and again. With DMP+K scrubs, it depends more on their character's DMP+K. You can't always just do it back to them.

The thing is, if your comfort zone is attacking all the time, then you have to work on improving YOUR "keep-out" game.
It's not really a "fight fire with fire" tactic, it's more like a "play different people, differently" tactic. You might not like playing "keep-away" but it's just another style to keep in you play-book and bring out when you need to.

Everybody has a weakness and for these "keep-away" players it's usually their own style that they don't deal with so well.
If that doesn't work, try OM pressure or any random play style that you don't usually do or agree with.
It sucks but sometimes you have to fight cheesy crap with even cheesier crap.</div></div></div>

 

For example: if you fight a DMP+K scrub and you are playing with a character with a decent DMP+K, do it back to them A LOT (lol, it's a lot of fun), but do it smart, if you do it right, you'll see how they start to do DMP+K a lot less.

ohhhhh how true this is. If you fight unico here is your strategy, hehe, especially if you are using lei fei, dmpk wait a moment, and then boom, jab stagger kick. even tho i didn't do anything other than dmp+k with delayed attacks following, that has been one of my all time favorite online victories...too fun.

 

One thing that has not yet been mentioned is just standing your ground. Many new players will try and mix up the game by rapidly backing up and waiting on me. I will check the lifebars, and if I'm ahead of them, I'll just stand there waiting.

There's a couple of reasons I do this, but the main one is that I have the leverage. The opponent simply cannot stand there all day, or I am going to win the round. The longer they wait, the greater the pressure is on them to actually do something, and the more pressure on them, the more likely they are to do something stupid, which I will capitalize on.

Griever's suggested moves are okay, but they are not really range moves. Brad's Hunting Kick is definitely strong, but slow to come out, and better suited to situations where you know that you have tricked your opponent into guarding out of fear. Also, Brad's phasing turn options are quite slow, and although you can try to use them to move around the ring, you are generally going to find yourself in trouble quickly because a) they are easy to see coming, and b) he does not have any lightning fast moves that come out of these stances.

One of the options that is good for Brad at distance to close the gap is LD 6K+G. This will move him forward twice and then enter the Sobral kick which has very good range in and of itself. If this kick does not hit, you can either crouch dash away from the opponent to re-introduce space and turn yourself back around, or, if you're feeling aggressive, enter P (and K if you like), to turn around and enter his stance options.

Depending on the range you're finding yourself in, I would avoid 66K and 46K+G. They both reward heavily on contact, but you really want to make sure you know that they are going to connect, otherwise these moves have looooooooong delays, and will leave you wide open for a knock-down, light pounce, and then back into range for your opponent.

Walking forward slowly is one of the best suggestions - if you suspect someone is going to come at you with punches, you can then just hit K and get Brad's excellent semi-circular head kick, which will give you a crumple and a combo-followup. If you just want to play it safe, you can block as soon as you see action from the opponent and then start your offense from a closer range.

 

@Vortigar

Vortigar, I just reread your post about long range choices with Brad and it's really great advice! I've been working on putting this to use throughout the day and have had great success. Starting to use the hunting kick and his knee out of SR and SL opens up a whole new dimension of delay and flow to use with Brad during the match, and makes things much less predictable. Thanks!

One thing I've had good success with is using the SL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and, on guard, following that up with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif(/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif) - After the block, people almost always attack and get caught with the follow-up kick on CH. Include the gesture for the clinch and you can drain their life bar significantly in a short time-span.

If I've been using swayback effectively, I can tie this routine in with his Radjamanon (however you spell that thing) combination and cause even more confusion about the break points that my opponent is trying to discover in my flow.

 

I've been using the Sorbal kick from crouch dashes with good results recently.

 

Yo, same here! It's an excellent move towards the end of rounds when both lifebars are down and your opponent starts to back off and avoid you.

I've noticed that some players will sit back and wait for you to come to them. I usually look towards the clock and determine how much time I have that I can wait out and still feel comfortable. Oddly enough, my own experience is that a lot of players start to feel a lot of pressure the longer they sit and don't do anything. If you can outwait your opponent, you can pressure them into attacking hastily, and most players misjudge the range that they are at, netting you easy strikes at the the end of a round when you only need to connect with one or two low attacks to clinch the victory.

One thing I like a lot about the sobral kick is that you have so many options after you enter back-turned stance - you can kick again and maintain range, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif to travel far and begin more stance mix-ups, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif to sweep for a free knock-down, etc.

Brad is a great character to play eh?

 

Sorry sorry sorry sorry /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

I knew sorbal sounded wrong!

What character in what game had a move called sobat carnival?

It's annoying me now.

I best lrn2google.

And yeah Sushi, I'm liking Brad.

EDIT:

Deejay's super!!

 

Well, I believe Sobral was the name of a mixed martial arts fighter - I know there was some discussion on this a while back in the forums.

In any case, this is a great move, and well worth learning the best way to enter it:

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, or, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif

This allows you to adjust your range either forward or backward prior to actually unleashing the kick itself.

 

Back crouch dash sobat destroys people rushing in at you.

Brad has telescopic legs.

 

yeah its renato "babalu" sobral your thinking of.
I think its wicked that they named all brad's moves using thai words.... his lumpinee combination for example. lumpinee is the top 145 lb division muay thai stadium in thailand. (that weight class being the most competitive division).

I saw a post a while back by "ciscorey" I believe claiming that he had trained in Muay thai but believed brads moves to be highly unrealistic. I would have to disagree with this, brads moves(for the most part) are rooted in real life muay thai techniques.... of course they are exaggerated to some extent as this is a fighting game after all.

I like how they included the mongkon as well...( a part of buddhist/thai muay thai culture) its part of a pre fight ceremony where do the Ram Muay, a dance which is traditionally a prayer as well as a vessel to ask forgiveness to the king or onlookers for the barbarity of the match. Its the thing that most people think is an upside down tennis racket on your head.