Newer Lion player with problems!

I am now a 5th Dan online on VF5 online. However there's some things that absolutely tear me apart. Most importantly it'd be characters like Eileen who have incredibly fast mids that go into huge long strings which I dont quick have memorize. Lion's best mids seem to be /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif , /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif , or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif .

The problem is though those don't really stun like many other characters mid strings, and don't have much follow up other then 1 or 2 hits. So it ends up me getting in a low jab here n there, but they then block my uppercut after the low jab, and go right back into their quick mid strings. I have no idea what to do!

Another big problem I have is closing space on people. The only distance moves I really have used are /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif . This becomes very predictable very fast. What are some good suggestions on ranged attacks. I want things that stun in general, and preferably have them be mids as lion has a quick jab string and some good lows, but his mid game seems very week when you're up against people with fast and long/complex mid strings.

Please! Any advice to counter this kind of stuff would be greatly appreciated!

 

Why are you so concerned about stunning? Now matter how hard you try, this game won't turn into DOA =P. Use the power of Zero Frame Throw to open up your offense! If you low jab, on MC, this gives you +7. This means throwing is a safe option, as most moves will clash. Also, if your opponent is just guarding, it will execute in zero frames (no startup time), and it keeps opponents from merely standing and blocking. Also, why don't you use sidestepping? If they have long strings, you can sidestep and do a standard pk, or a mid launcher of his, or maybe even land a side turned throw which cant be escaped.

 

Reread what I said. I didn't say 0 frame throw will come out on MC. I mixed in two different things. I talked about 0 frame throw, then I talked about throwing after low punch to mix in with is mids. Reason it wont come out in zero frames on hit is because they are recovering for a portion of the frames if you are trying to throw. I was referring to using zero frame throws to keep the opponent from blocking in general. If they realize by standing around, they constantly find themselves thrown, it will encourage them to attack more, opening up offense.

Zero-frame throw is one of the biggest tools in the game imo. It gets people to crouch, opening up stagger moves on crouching opponents, encourages better spacing, and can really open up mind games against your opponent. If they block, they can get zero frame thrown, or if they attack, they can eat damage (from disadvantage). Once you make sure your opponent knows it (and against good players - crappy players just take advantage of them), you can use it to your advantage and utilize better yomi.

 

My Lion is pretty basic but may i suggest a) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif meteor punch against eileen's strings (and everybody's strings to be honest) b) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif to close distance?

 

214P Won't work on Eileen's strings as it doesn't sabaki elbows.

Moves to close up the distance with Lion:

8+P+K probably his best mid range move
3+K not as good as it used to be, but still OK, and will give a stagger on crouch.
P strings due to the many variants PP strings are a great way to get in and confuse opponent.


Against Eileen, try to anticipate her flip and P or PK her. If she actually did the flip, you'll be able to juggle her with PKP.
Successfull dodge into OM K can be useful too.
The things you don't want to do is LP since she can beat it with quite all her string options.

 

Akai, think of DubC's sentence :
"Also, if your opponent is just guarding, it will execute in zero frames (no startup time), and it keeps opponents from merely standing and blocking"
as a sentence from another paragraph with no reference. The fact that he didn't use line break is misleading.
He's just saying "throw if opponent freezes a lot"

 

Yep, the opponent needs to be 'passive' for the 0-frame throw to come out, and as far as I have figured it out, there is a certain time buffer after something happens (move is blocked/hits etc) before a character will be considered passive. Maybe its just blockstun duration I dont know for sure, but there was some discussion earlier about this buffer being 10 frames in length. I havent seen any hard data on the subject but there definitely IS some sort of buffer to prevent instant 0-frame throws after a move is blocked or hits.

 

Okay so up+P+K is 1 mid move I know I don't use enough. I see it has some distance on it too. Hmm. I also probably don't throw enough, but that's cuz I usually am afraid to because everyone low-jabs me repeatedly all day lol.

I'm a DOA4 convert and I'd kill for me to be able to counter! Arg! And I am very iffy w/ sidestepping as of yet. Maybe it's the 360 dpad, but half the time when i try to side step then add in the PGK, he just does a standing PDK block thingee and doesn't sidestep at all.

Another attack I don't use enough is back back K then P+K. This, along with up+P+K are probably the 2 moves I've seen the most in online youtube videos of good people playing, that I just cant seem to integrate.

Are there "good times" for these 2 attacks?

 

8+P+K is a good whiff punisher, good range and good low hit detection (unlike 3K). Use it if you successfully make a rising attack whiff for example.

44+K is good after a backdash for several reasons:
-You can make short range attacks whiff and hit them as they recover. You can also bait them by purposely whiffing a move at long range then 44+K them as they try to dash in--> attack
-Back dash 44+K will beat DTEG.

-44K is a true Reverse nitaku tool, which means it will never clash with a throw, it will always beat it unless the throw is guaranteed.


1PP is also one of Lion's top moves

 

If you want moves that close the distance then try dashing in and using a sidekick (DF+K). F,F+P is good for closing distance and mixing up with B,DF+P. Both of those moves lead into a combo and leave you at a good advantage to hit them as they get up. Also Lion's full circular mid and low kicks are good for closing distance.

 

D-Pad modification time!!! Check out my "d-pad mod is a must" post, you will see the difference immediately...

 

Wow this thread is lively! Thanks for the recommendations guys! So 44+K is good when opening up space between you and you're opponent, and 8+P+K is a good short/mid range whiff punisher and good after you block someone's attacks?

I already use 1+PP pretty often when I'm creating space between me n the opponent, but 44+K seems like it has more damage potential.

 

LOL, from the second you were talking about how you wanted more moves that stagger, I knew that the DOA mindset was just screwing you up. Now you want to be able to counter... probably out of staggers too.

Heh, no condemnation here though, only advice: in VF5 you have to think with the mindset of advantage and disadvantage. You have to know your options at disadvantage (at a higher level, which moves let you fuzzy, which require that you ETEG to avoid throws - fuzzying is generally safer, as you don't put yourself at risk of getting thrown at all if you don't escape their throw direction), and you DEFINITELY have to know how you can respond at advantage.

Advantage comes in many forms: blocked attacks (clearly), and your attacks that either on hit or on guard leave you with advantage. Look at your character's frame data! More key here than in DOA. Since unlike DOA, most attacks merely give you small frame advantage on hit (1 to 8 frames), instead of a stun which is like +1billion, it is good to know after which attacks, you can follow with something else that will beat "most" of your opponent's best options.

This is at the basic level. I don't play Lion, but what you are asking is more fundamental, so I'll provide an example from Akira. He has a 16 frame single palm that is really good (because of the second hit. Normally, I can't use this move unless I have some distance between me and the opponent, since it will get beat out a lot. If my pk hits, it gives +4. But now, I can go for that move, and know that the only things that can beat it is standing punch (my move will now come out in 12 frames, and standing punches are 11). Everything else will either be the same number of frames or slower. Also, since it is higher damage than moves that would hit at the same time, it will beat those out. Look for things like this when you look at your character's frame data.

Use your advantage to try to get in slower moves. Spacing is key because it opens room to use those slower moves also. Remember these things.

As for the problem you have on the pad, you only need to TAP the down/up direction to evade. You don't press P+G+K to evade. Using P+G+K for offensive move during an evade is very risky. You have to really know what you are doing, since you need to press it as soon as you KNOW your evade came out. Otherwise, you will get hit. You still will if they are doing some kind of string, since the follow ups will now track due to the fact you pressed buttons after the evade. A better solution altogether is to buy a stick and learn to play on that. It was REALLY tough for me, since I had never played on a stick before, and I wanted to learn Akira, who requires precision and speed on your stick use (stuff that is virtually impossible for me on a pad to begin with anyway, so definitely easier than that), but other characters should be more forgiving, plus you get the rewards of ease for multi-directional input moves and easy of various combinations of G,P,K instead of having to use various triggers or maneuver your thumb around to hit the combinations of face buttons. Advanced movement (various types of dashes, into evade cancels, into dashes, and evades into buffered moves) also come easier on the stick.

 

Yea i get the advantage/disadvantage thing. It's just since I'm new and don't know frame date I am real bad at figuring out what leaves Lion at advantages/disadvantages, etc.

But yea this has been quite helpful so far! Anyone want to spar online hit me up, my gamertag is slayerfaith1982

 

Just wanted to add, what'd a good follow up when you stagger someone (or whatever it's called when the lil joystick twitching pops over their hit after hitting them) with Lion? Like say you hit em with a 3+K or 4+pkg then K? Those both tend to stagger or whatever, but then the opponent is beyond reach, and that advantage gets wasted. Thoughts?

 

Basicaly there 3/4 types of staggers:

Light Stagger (6+P)
Strong/Side Stagger (3+K)
ButtStagger Stagger (4P+K+G, K or 43+P+G)

Most of the time light stagger is close to a 50/50 attack/throw guessing game.

Strong stagger = guaranteed PK or more against poor/medium strugglers and guessing game vs good strugglers. On side stagger (after a successful hit of OM P from the side vs low punch for ex) 4+KP is hard to struggle, you're left at +1 after hit which means you can use OM again to deal with P and LP.

Buttstagger= more or less the same since the stagger is often stronger but you have to dash in. When opponent is against the wall butt staggers are more dangerous since opponent isn't pushed away but still has to struggle hard.


The first two types of staggers often give you enough advantage to use slower but safer lanchers like P+K that would be interuptible even at +7 for example. The wiki has an article advising which move can be useful according to Lion's advantage, check it ^^.

 

I'm bad with stuff like this, but what does "OM" stand for? lol

Thanks for helping out btw!

 

Offensive Move

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif

At minor advantage it can avoid attacks and give large reward like the side stagger for OM /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or the side crumple for OM /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif this can be done with relatively low risk on block since both OM moves are relatively safe (with OM /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif being more safe than OM /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif).