problem with-8 to -11 position and the power of 2p

before i begin with this topic i have to say that i AM a new player to vf. i was learning evo when vf5 came out and it's turned out being a weird and difficult adjustment. if these are newb questions, then i apologize, but i'm not going to worry about flaming; i think there is a genuine question here.

i also thought about posting this in another thread, but i thought it was defined enough to make it a thread within itself for shun.

the positions that i'm speaking of were issues dealt with against pai and vanessa. two relatively faster characters with safe moves.

now, in vf5, i've been having issues with the -8 to -11 of scenarios. let's say i'm shun, and i do a 236b (chouwan), according to the black book i am left at a -8 position. now, if the opponent tries to throw me, and i hold down, i still get thrown (no duck ever becomes present). now, if i do a p, i clash. furthermore, if i do a 2p, not only do i duck the throw, but i also hit the opponent.

in this same position but on the opposite end (me being at a +8 to +11), my opponent's 2p seems to beat out the majority of moves that i attempt (jabs or otherwise). shun doesn't really have an elbow that i'm familiar with (and i don't think 3p is fast enough to be considered an elbow), so his options are to evade or backdash

now, if i backdash, i'm at a loss of what moves i should doing, as shun's reach isn't what it could be. also, if i succesfully evade, the 2p is safe enough that even if it whiffs i'm limited on what damage i can do. also, if i evade and do a defensive move, and the opponent simply blocks, i'm at a terrible disadvantage.

maybe this is due to my limited knowledge of vf5, but what i'm essentially saying is that it seems that shun is always at a certain position where he has to rely on 2p as an offensive tool even IF he's at an advantage because he has no elbow to combat the effectiveness of a 2p.

thoughts?

 

I am not a shun player (yet), but it seems that +8 is more than enough advantage to use chouwan to beat /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif. Its special mid, but as you noted, they cant crouch guard to beat throw at -8. So you should be able to mixup chouwan and throw at +7 or better (unless sabaki etc).

 

hm...

chouwan comes out in 16 frames, and 2p comes out in 12 (pai's standing p comes out in 10). so, technically speaking, if i were to buffer the 236 and hit B at an active frame, chouwan should beat out 2p when at a +5 or standing p when at a +7. however, there aren't many moves that leave shun is this good of a position.

edit: is there any way to buffer out a chouwan from a 2p without getting a fc 3p? or can you simply do the 236 and by adding that 6 the fc 3p no longer comes out?

i have no way to test this as of right now.

 

Chouwan should beat even vanessas 9frame punch at +7; if the attacks reach hit frames at the same time, chouwan wins b/c does more damage.

As for not many moves that leave shun at +7, maybe not on hit, but there are plenty of those kinds of opportunities on defense. Below that, nobody has any simple mixups that they can force anyway - its not just a shun thing. 'cause crouch dash beats throw at 6 frames.

As for buffering chouwan, i'm certainly not the person to ask - I cant get it reliably from 2p, but I always I have issues getting moves that require circular input without skipping corners to come out 100%. Besides, why would you want to buffer it from 2p? Doesn't seem solid unless you can hit check that you got a MC . . .

If there are issues getting the 236 out in time, seems like 3p or 3p cancel into SKK games would be a good alternative to chouwan in the situations you're describing.

 

I think you should try fooling with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif. This attack beats lows easily, and from Disadvantage, it won't clash. Plus, you can combo from normal hit.

It's 17 frames, and it's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif counterable, but the risk is worth the reward. It's one of his best moves, and I think it'll help in the situations you're talking about

 

There are plenty of other moves you can use, though I'd say that chouwan is probably the best of them. Just look in the Shun command list and look for mid or low attacks that execute at 18 frames or faster for +8 situations. Off the top of my head: /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, etc. etc. You can even use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, which has the special benefit of hopping over most low attacks.

Shun has plenty of good options for when he is at +8. Good luck and keep practicing and playing--that's the only way you'll get better!

 

what about -8 to -11 positions? should i just always be on the defensive and block?

 

Yo, this is DancingFighterG. As a beginner shun player I know that situation that you are talking about and what I do is just defend, back dash or buffer in throws and defend. I've noticed that getting into 2P wars is not good for Shun at close range mid range is his ideal position due to sthe options listed above by ice-9. At a -8 what I try to do is buffer in the appropiate throw escapes for that character and block. Takes some mad practice but seems the best option right now.

 

I'm not that familiar with VF5 Shun, so my comments are limited, but generally I'd say you want to use dodge throw escape techniques or just guard standing/crouching.

There are also "abare" things you can go for such as /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif to hopefully interrupt an opponent's slower moves, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif which avoids a lot of things, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, some of Shun's special movements such as /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/ub.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, or even back dash if the opponent attempts a short range attack.

 

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif will get a chowan from standing, you can substitute backdash for forward dash if you want but you will probably get /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif

-8 to -11 you really do have to take the defensive role. In Evo you used to be able to low kick or sweep under elbows at lg. dis, but not so in vf5. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is an option if you have >=10 drinks, eteg is of course an option, and if you are at mid-long range, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif should get away from most pokes if you are out of range of throws, but this serves mostly the same purpouse of backdashing.

 

Re: problem with-8 to -11 position and the power o

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif cancels the crouching status, so you must buffer /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif before doing chowan when Shun is in the crouching position

 

Re: problem with-8 to -11 position and the power o

1KK is probably one of the most clutch move there is for shun.
if all else fails throw it out...if they block it press G and fall you lose 1DP but keep the fight alive.

 

Re: problem with-8 to -11 position and the power o

it's worth noting that if 1k is blocked and you continue with 1kk, even if you G cancel, the opponent can easily get a back throw on you.

 

Re: problem with-8 to -11 position and the power o

It's kinda funny how I learned that the hard way last night...
They can re-launch with a low P, and also they can low kick you like 4 times after you fall.