Quantitative Frame Data for Stance Entry

Japanese Virtua Fighter blogger Lettuce ran a series of tests to logically ascertain Brad's stance entry frame data. His findings are in a Google Documents spreadsheet:

Lettuce's Frame Data

A breakdown of what this data means, in practical terms, is below. Remember that when two moves connect simultaneously, the player utilizing the higher damage move incurs no damage, and the other player receives counter hit damage. If two moves dealing the same amount of damage connect at the same time, both players incur counter hit damage. With this in mind, I've found it necessary to include the damage values of each move next to their respective commands. The frame values listed assume that the moves in question deal more damage than the opponent's moves.

As an example, let's examine Brad's Ducking from :

If lands as a counter hit, Ducking should interrupt any attack by the opponent, provided that it deals the greatest amount of damage. Therefore, if Vanessa attempts her Defensive Style (Execution: 10F; Damage: 10) in this situation, both attacks will land simultaneously. However, Brad's offense will prevail, since Ducking deals 12 points of damage while Defensive Style only deals 10 points of damage.

Note that data for strings always refers to the final strike of the series. In the example above, the second part of the string is what lands as a counter hit. For this reason, don't assume that Brad can interrupt 10 frame attacks if the first part of the series lands as a counter hit. The second attack will be a normal hit, and Brad will only be able to interrupt attacks that execute within the space of 16 frames with Ducking (should it deal more damage than the opponent's move).

I didn't go below 10 frames of execution in listing the attacks that Brad is able to interrupt from his stances. This is because there are no striking attacks 9 frames or faster in Final Showdown.

Lastly, thanks goes to akai for providing me with a link to this data!



- G: -3; H: -3; CH: +3 | or - G: -2; H: -2; CH: +4

Ducking (12 Damage) - G: 16F; H: 16F; CH: 10F | Slipping (18 Damage) - G: 19F; H: 19F; CH: 13F

Ducking (25 Damage) - G: 21F; H: 21F; CH: 15F | Slipping (25 Damage) - G: 18F; H: 18F; CH: 12F

Ducking (16 Damage) - G: 18F; H: 18F; CH: 12F | Slipping (20 Damage) - G: 15F; H: 15F; CH: 10F

Ducking (30 Damage) - G: 18F; H: 18F; CH: 12F | Slipping (25 Damage) - G: 27F; H: 27F; CH: 21F


- G: -5; H: -2; CH: +2 | or - G: -4; H: -1; CH: +3

Ducking (12 Damage) - G: 18F; H: 15F; CH: 11F | Slipping (18 Damage) - G: 21F; H: 18F; CH: 14F

Ducking (25 Damage) - G: 23F; H: 20F; CH: 16F | Slipping (25 Damage) - G: 20F; H: 17F; CH: 13F

Ducking (16 Damage) - G: 20F; H: 17F; CH: 13F | Slipping (20 Damage) - G: 17F; H: 14F; CH: 10F

Ducking (30 Damage) - G: 20F; H: 17F; CH: 13F | Slipping (25 Damage) - G: 29F; H: 26F; CH: 22F


- G: -4; H: +3; CH: +5 | or - G: -1; H: +6; CH: +8

Ducking (12 Damage) - G: 17F; H: 10F; CH: 10F | Slipping (18 Damage) - G: 18F; H: 11F; CH: 10F

Ducking (25 Damage) - G: 22F; H: 15F; CH: 13F | Slipping (25 Damage) - G: 17F; H: 10F; CH: 10F

Ducking (16 Damage) - G: 19F; H: 12F; CH: 10F | Slipping (20 Damage) - G: 14F; H: 10F; CH: 10F

Ducking (30 Damage) - G: 19F; H: 12F; CH: 10F | Slipping (25 Damage) - G: 26F; H: 19F; CH: 17F


- G: -3; H: +2; CH: +9 | or - G: -2; H: +3; CH: +10

Ducking (12 Damage) - G: 16F; H: 11F; CH: 10F | Slipping (18 Damage) - G: 19F; H: 14F; CH: 10F

Ducking (25 Damage) - G: 21F; H: 16F; CH: 10F | Slipping (25 Damage) - G: 18F; H: 13F; CH: 10F

Ducking (16 Damage) - G: 18F; H: 13F; CH: 10F | Slipping (20 Damage) - G: 15F; H: 10F; CH: 10F

Ducking (30 Damage) - G: 18F; H: 13F; CH: 10F | Slipping (25 Damage) - G: 27F; H: 22F; CH: 15F


- G: -1; H: +2; CH: +5 | or - G: +/-0; H: +3; CH: +6

Ducking (12 Damage) - G: 14F; H: 11F; CH: 10F | Slipping (18 Damage) - G: 17; H: 14F; CH: 11F

Ducking (25 Damage) - G: 19F; H: 16F; CH: 13F | Slipping (25 Damage) - G: 16F; H: 13F; CH: 10F

Ducking (16 Damage) - G: 16F; H: 13F; CH: 10F | Slipping (20 Damage) - G: 13F; H: 10F; CH: 10F

Ducking (30 Damage) - G: 16F; H: 13F; CH: 10F | Slipping (25 Damage) - G: 25F; H: 22F; CH: 19F


- G: -2; H: +1; CH: +7 | or - G: -1; H: +2; CH: +8

Ducking (12 Damage) - G: 15F; H: 12F; CH: 10F | Slipping (18 Damage) - G: 18F; H: 15F; CH: 10F

Ducking (25 Damage) - G: 20F; H: 17F; CH: 11F | Slipping (25 Damage) - G: 17F; H: 14F; CH: 10F

Ducking (16 Damage) - G: 17F; H: 14F; CH: 10F | Slipping (20 Damage) - G: 14F; H: 11F; CH: 10F

Ducking (30 Damage) - G: 17F; H: 14F; CH: 10F | Slipping (25 Damage) - G: 26F; H: 23F; CH: 17F


- G: +2; H: +8; CH: +13 | or - G: +3; H: +9; CH: +14

Ducking (12 Damage) - G: 11F; H: 10F; CH: 10F | Slipping (18 Damage) - G: 14F; H: 10F; CH: 10F

Ducking (25 Damage) - G: 16F; H: 10F; CH: 10F | Slipping (25 Damage) - G: 13F; H: 10F; CH: 10F

Ducking (16 Damage) - G: 13F; H: 10F; CH: 10F | Slipping (20 Damage) - G: 10F; H: 10F; 10F

Ducking (30 Damage) - G: 13F; H: 10F; CH: 10F | Slipping (25 Damage) - G: 22F; H: 16F; CH: 11F


- G: -1; H: +5; CH: +7 | or - G: +/-0; H: +6; CH: +8

Ducking (12 Damage) - G: 14F; H: 10F; CH: 10F | Slipping (18 Damage) - G: 17F; H: 11F; CH: 10F

Ducking (25 Damage) - G: 19F; H: 13F; CH: 11F | Slipping (25 Damage) - G: 16F; H: 10F; CH: 10F

Ducking (16 Damage) - G: 16F; H: 10F; CH: 10F | Slipping (20 Damage) - G: 13F; H: 10F; CH: 10F

Ducking (30 Damage) - G: 16F; H: 10F; CH: 10F | Slipping (25 Damage) - G: 25F; H: 19F; CH: 17F


- G: +3; H: +3; CH: +6 | or - G: +4; H: +4; CH: +7

Ducking (12 Damage) - G: 10F; H: 10F; CH: 10F | Slipping (18 Damage) - G: 13F; H: 13F; CH: 10F

Ducking (25 Damage) - G: 15F; H: 15F; CH: 12F | Slipping (25 Damage) - G: 12F; H: 12F; CH: 10F

Ducking (16 Damage) - G: 12F; H: 12F; CH: 10F | Slipping (20 Damage) - G: 10F; H: 10F; CH: 10F

Ducking (30 Damage) - G: 12F; H: 12F; CH: 10F | Slipping (25 Damage) - G: 21F; H: 21F; CH: 18F


Ducking - G: +/-0; H: +2; CH: +9 | Ducking or - G: +1; H: +3; CH: +10

Ducking (12 Damage) - G: 13F; H: 11F; CH: 10F | Slipping (18 Damage) - G: 16F; H: 14F; CH: 10F

Ducking (25 Damage) - G: 18F; H: 16F; CH: 10F | Slipping (25 Damage) - G: 15F; H: 13F; CH: 10F

Ducking (16 Damage) - G: 15F; H: 13F; CH: 10F | Slipping (20 Damage) - G: 12F; H: 10F; CH: 10F

Ducking (30 Damage) - G: 15F; H: 13F; CH: 10F | Slipping (25 Damage) - G: 24F; H: 22F; CH: 15F


Ducking - G: -1; H: +4; CH: +8 | Ducking or - G: +/-0; H: +5; CH: +9

Ducking (12 Damage) - G: 14F; H: 10F; CH: 10F | Slipping (18 Damage) - G: 17F; H: 12F; CH: 10F

Ducking (25 Damage) - G: 19F; H: 14F; CH: 10F | Slipping (25 Damage) - G: 16F; H: 11F; CH: 10F

Ducking (16 Damage) - G: 16F; H: 11F; CH: 10F | Slipping (20 Damage) - G: 13F; H: 10F; CH: 10F

Ducking (30 Damage) - G: 16F; H: 11F; CH: 10F | Slipping (25 Damage) - G: 25F; H: 20F; CH: 16F


Sway Back - G: -2; H: -2; CH: +/-0 | Sway Back or - G: -1; H: -1; CH: +1

Ducking (12 Damage) - G: 15F; H: 15F; CH: 13F | Slipping (18 Damage) - G: 18F; H: 18F; CH: 16F

Ducking (25 Damage) - G: 20F; H: 20F; CH: 18F | Slipping (25 Damage) - G: 17F; H: 17F; CH: 15F

Ducking (16 Damage) - G: 17F; H: 17F; CH: 15F | Slipping (20 Damage) - G: 14F; H: 14F; CH: 12F

Ducking (30 Damage) - G: 17F; H: 17F; CH: 15F | Slipping (25 Damage) - G: 26F; H: 26F; CH: 24F


Back Turned - G: -2; H: +/- 0; CH: +2 | Back Turned or - G: -1; H: +1; CH: +3

Ducking (12 Damage) - G: 15F; H: 13F; CH: 11F | Slipping (18 Damage) - G: 18F; H: 16F; CH: 14F

Ducking (25 Damage) - G: 20F; H: 18F; CH: 16F | Slipping (25 Damage) - G: 17F; H: 15F; CH: 13F

Ducking (16 Damage) - G: 17F; H: 15F; CH: 13F | Slipping (20 Damage) - G: 14F; H: 12F; CH: 10F

Ducking (30 Damage) - G: 17F; H: 15F; CH: 13F | Slipping (25 Damage) - G: 26F; H: 24F; CH: 22F

 

Great post !!!

I haven't tried the new Brad yet, but I know I'll play him someday and this info will come in handy.
One thing that I would add is the hit level of the attacks.I think it's worth mentioning that some of them are highs and will lose to a low punch even though they 'll beat a 11 frames attack.
Basically, all entries will lose to low punch on block, which is a key info for Brad and don't really appears in your post

 

I don't agree with this. It is not my responsibility to inform people of information they should have prior to learning this information. One of the first things a person should do when learning a new character is to become acquainted with his command list.

I forgot to add the data for Back Turned though, so I'll be adding that later.

That's not true! I haven't committed all of this data to memory, but I know that Ducking will always avoid lows, and a guarded or Slipping will always beat a low punch attempt.



EDIT: It turns out that I didn't forget the data for Back Turned . Lettuce doesn't have it!

 

This post is basically the key for taking Brad to the next level and can't be stressed enough. With Brad it's very important to hitcheck and since a lot of these stats don't make much sense in trainingmode on your own this is a gold mine.

For instance one could easily be led to believe that pp (-5 on hit or guard) into ducking p (13f) would be interrupted by up to a 18f move (5+13) due to damage but as seen above this isn't true it's only up to a 16f move (which will be double collision). You need to learn these stats with ducking and slipping as a Brad player just as much as you need to learn other 'normal' stats cause his mixup for instance is very strong now with ducking k+g (only TC) and his catchthrow and basically a nitaku. You can also cancel with G things and throw etc just as in Vanilla.

 

i dont get the notation at all. for hit and guard in the example you mentioned you attack will land on the same frame as a 16 frame move. but for ch you list 10f? you get LESS adv on ch or something?

what am i missing?

is there no way to just note exactly how + or - you are at entry?

 

It means that on a counter hit, you can beat attacks that are as fast as 10 frames in execution. For some moves, and possibly this one, you could beat attacks that are 9 frames in execution, and so forth. However, I stopped at 10F, since no attacks in this game are faster than 10 frames.

 

haha damn you know what, i could have figured that out if i didnt read this post at almost 3am. lol sorry but thanks

 

Updated the first post with syntax fixes and corrections to the data.

 

Nice work Lib

 

Just by analogy, shouldn't Ducking be:
G: 21F; H: 16F; CH: 10F
?



Another strange thing :

Usually Slipping is 1 frame faster than Ducking, but after it's 3 frame faster?! Is it normal?

 

Yep, I messed it up. Thanks!

I've noticed that too. Yeah, that's weird.

 

Just to be sure of it, I made some tests.

Since I don't have a sparring partner right now, I could just test Slipping , and it indeed beats a 14f Mid. So the framedata about slipping seem to be right.

But another thing tends to confirm that the framedata is right, when you cancel a move with a Ducking or a Slipping, usually Slipping adds -5 frames of disavantadge on the display.
But after Slipping adds only adds -3 frames of disavantage, so 2 frame faster than usual, which is coherent with the framedata right.


I just tested the other moves just in case, and it's indeed the only exception.


(in the end, I found nothing new )

 

I've had a reformatted version of this thread's data focused on where Ducking or Slipping would interrupt a 12f jab written down physically for a bit now (in my little Brad bible).

I've just transliterated my copy to a spreadsheet on Google's Drive.

Enjoy.

http://goo.gl/9nOE3

 

Nice.

Personally I group slipping and ducking moves together, I only reason in term of move execution. Which makes something like :
Slip P+K ===> fastest move
Duck P ===> +1 frame
Slip K / Duck P+K / Duck K+G ===> +3 frames
Slip P ===> +4 frames
Duck K ===> +6 frames
Slip K+G ===> +12 frames

At the exception for 4PK as starting move.


So you motivated me to reformat data according to my vision
For those who are interested you can find the data on this spreadsheet :

http://goo.gl/Gt4V6


Some notes :
- Normally all the data should be OK, I used Excel formulas, but if you find a mistake, don't hesitate to warn me.
- I added data for Ducking P+G. By the way, considering my finding, I highly doubt of the speed execution given on the move-list. By deduction it should be 24 frames.
- I added data for Back Turned PK. It has the same properties as 4PK.
- If someone can tell me how to add a goddamn link to a cell, feel free to tell, I searched during 10 mins and gave up.

 

Oh man, that looks great, and really is way more comprehensive than mine. Looks way better too, I'm kind of a newb at speadsheets lol. This should really help new Brad players understand their stancing options.

There's a typo at column P, row 7, a repeat of Duck P+G. I'm not sure what it should be, I'm too tired/lazy to figure it out right now lol.

 

I am willing to trade my spreadsheets skills with your VF skills (warning, my spreadsheets skill are pretty much basics considering all that can be done ).


Thanks for your observation, I forgot to remove old data for Duck P+G from 4PK move, this line was calculated considering it would execute on 17 frames.

 

I think my VF skills are pretty much basics considering all that can be done. ^_^

 

I removed data for Ducking P+G, since I learnt recently that Catch Throw doesn't work as described in the old wiki.

I may able to find how to put a correct formula for it, but since the cases where the CT can beat an attack are pretty much rare when entering in stance from an attack, I will probably not bother with it.
Just for info 4K CH Duck P+G will beat a 11f jab (didn't check with 10f) and 6P CH will beat a 16f attack.

 

Sorry, noob question here... Do I interpret it correctly, that slipping K would beat out standing/ducking P after this string on hit or counter? Just for confirmation if I interpret the data correctly.

This would mean I could use as hitconfirm if I need to block (on guard) or enter the mix up situation attack or throw (on hit/counter).

Thank you

 

Yes it would beat 11F jabs