Ready for a new flame?

Bet that got you to read this post /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif j/k Unfortunately this isn't a flame. Since I had some free time I was going over some notes about subjects I wanted to write about as the NAVF scene grew. One of subjects had to deal with ideas brought up in 2002-2003 about how to grow interest in NAVF and how to emulate the scene in Japan. I'm going to expand on this and write a little more about Nishispo and Beat Tribe.

10 years later in my VF journey and a trip to Japan, I think I owe an apology to the community of oldies still present. The essence of my posts dealt with growing the community by doing whatever it took to encourage competition. It took a trip to Japan to show me that the core NYC oldies development was all backwards.

During VF3 days I had all the competition I wanted. I played 4 or 5 times a week. Hiro was living with me. My viewpoint at that moment was that anything goes. If the opponent couldn't deal with a certain style or strategy of play it was his fault. In our core group it was common to "flame" each other to create competition inside our group. I took that aspect of our daily sessions into the NAVF scene and used it as a tool to generate interest.

The problem with this is two-fold.

The scene in NAVF is so small that often doing whatever it takes to win sometimes hurts more than helps. VF players can be divided into two generic groups, players who improve on experience and players who improve on technical knowledge. I would guess that more than 2/3rd's of active NAVF players are experience players. With a small scene, experience players are at a natural disadvantage in improving.

When I would abuse strategies against an opponent I took it as an opportunity to ridicule the person for falling for the same thing over and over. The flaming for some would provide incentive for them to figure out how to deal with a certain situation. This was effective in our core group that played 4-5x a week.

-------------------------------------------------
So years later what have I learned? Well I went to Japan and let’s just say I threw my entire thinking of the game and the community out the door.

In Asia it’s nearly impossible to adapt to one player and expect that the strategies you used would be effective against another player using the same character. In Japan all of the top players were well rounded, so none had “flaws†you could easily pick up on.

While playing you really feel like you have no idea what is coming next. In Japan you can easily develop a style of play that allows you to win without knowing what is coming next, a pure mixture of offense and defense. The sheer amount of strategies you see is amazing.

Being in Beat Tribe was the most refreshing and fun thing I’ve done in VF4. In Asia and Japan I played a total of just over 1000 games or so. I learned more in 1 month being in Japan than in 1 year in NAVF.

I also witnessed the why and how we can make NAVF a little better and a little larger.
Here’s my list:

1) We should make player profiles on VFDC. Beat Tribe really shows how much people like to be displayed. Everyone loved having their team name in lights, pictures in printed material, online etc. I bet less than ½ the people know who I am on VFDC these days since I’ve been pretty inactive online. How about Owen? or Maddy? Player profiles would add a lot to the community as a separate section on VFDC I bet. I think Owen guessed there were about 80 or so competative members in NAVF. The section would have the same function it has in the Beat Tribe events. The section helps people new to VF and going to the gatherings to learn who to look out for and who to watch.

A profile could look like:

PICTURE - Name: CrewTW, Character Expertise: Aoi, Lau Ranking: Jounin, Experience games: 40,000.

2) More events, we should have a voluntary paypal membership system on VFDC. The money should be put in an interest bearing account and every 6 months a NAVF event should be held. The events should be regularly scheduled and rotated among the cities that have the most player profiles. This is how we would tie the two things together to encourage cities to get more players.

3) We should all play however we like but openly involve what and why things are working instead of keeping things to ourselves. Every player is guilty of abusing something during gatherings. NAVF should concentrate on making gatherings a chance to improve. The scene is simply too small to be able to work out all of the things people abuse. We can reserve the ego stroking to tournaments.

4) We should reserve gameplay judgements to those players who have gone to Japan and performed well in arcades like Nishispo. From now on my personal view is that if you aren’t playing in Japan or at least in Asia you really have no idea how good you really are. Beating people regularly who don’t have any particular flaws or character inexperience means you really are a strong VF player. It’s no question that if you enjoy the game, going to Japan will make your VF interest stronger.

That’s it. Hope the list and my experiences helped.

Heres some pics of our travels from my camera



This is where we stayed



This is the view from the apartment in Roppongi



Me Chibita and Rodney



The all Akira tournament participants



Rodney, Hereru and I at Beat Tribe



The names for food in Japan are amazing huh?



This is our bracket at BT, I believe we are Team 6-C

 

man, I *almost* read your many paragraphs of self-aggrandizing bullshit and thought, "why bother? Andy is a complete dick. fuck him. asshole".

go blow, fucktard.

GE
<font color="green"> yes, I am ready.</font>

 

i think i just read the most unfucking believable thing on vfdc - andy apologizing combined with worthwhile contributions, welcome to the socal method of scene competition, that i remember you detested so much. /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Anyways i like the player profile idea minus the ranking system. Like you said theres no real way to rank players, especially in the vast continent of North America, accurately. Another useful thing to add is locations and meet times for certain scenes, with contact info (via email or phone). A trivial thing i would like to see changed is the word "Jamboree", it doesnt exactly speak VF meets.

Also regular tournaments does boost interest exponentially. As long as there is money involved people will come. The problem is that funding is harsh, and a $500 total expense trip to NY or vice versa to socal is a bit harsh for a chance at a possible $200 total first prize. This being the most extreme case.

Im not saying its not possible, but it requires serious dedication. Maybe its more feasible to plan this out right now, and launch it with VF5, theres a newer and larger community interest.

 

Was your team 6-B?
Because if it was, that's a funny team name. No offense.

I think 6-C is Pasiopard.


This message is for Mr.CrewTW.

 

LOL, yah it requires dedication, more than SoCal has. When did you guys become competitive??? SoCal falls in neither category of experienced nor knowledgable and when have they have been competitive in America? Your scene lacks the drive to improve, always just complacent with what you're doing. Movement isn't going to help your game when you don't have a good grasp of the fundamentals.

Back in the heyday of VF4 in the States, there were 2 schools (experience vs knowledge) which pretty much broke down to the vets (mostly top NYC players) vs the new generation (IMF/B1/Cappo/Shou/Maddy). As Andy said, his approach killed his best concentrated competition, FL, and the scene really stagnated. If you really are playing this game, I don't understand why you wouldn't put the effort in it to get good if you are going spend time doing it. Why do anything and half ass it? Hearing excuses about I just want to have fun is laughable. If you like losing, that's good and all. If you play this game outside of Japan, you need to study and understand it. I mean really understand it. I just don't get why most of the people on here are not competitive at all. This is a versus game. The fun comes from outguessing the opponent. The last person who really stepped up was Maddy and how long ago was that? Many players have proved that we can play at a globally competitive level so IT IS POSSIBLE. You're all free to flame me and I am sure many of you will but we saw how successful the Americans were at EVO2K4. We worked hard from EVO2K3 to bring up our level of play. I have even see that the UKers have been trying quite hard as well. I want you to beat my ass. Make me eat my words.

I learned this game from reading the mooks and 1/60 while going to gatherings and tourneys. I learned how and when to use the defensive techniques, how to see stance, how to punish whiffs, etc, all from reading, practicing and doing. So, have others.
I represented America to the fullest last year and I do it each time our team plays at Nishispo, the strongest arcade in the world. I am ranked Meishou (4 above 10th dan) and considered one of the best Sarahs in Japan. It goes to show that solid understanding of the game goes a looooong way. Even though I play here now, my standard game is still the same as before. As Smurf says, I still play the same. So go ahead and flame me, say I suck, whatever but the facts speak for themselves. Basically, I am asking you all, WHY DO YOU SUCK SO MUCH?

You get good at anything by putting the effort in the right places.

 

Dude, a big part of why you've become good is because you LIVE in Tokyo and play at Nishispo. You're good, but you weren't Meishou good the last time we played six months ago. Your Sarah then was like the rest of us non-Japanese players...struggling between 10th dan and Tsuwamono.

 

man, I *almost* read your many paragraphs of self-aggrandizing bullshit and thought, "why bother? Shou is a complete dick. fuck him. asshole".

go blow, fucktard.

GE
<font color="green"> still ready. </font>

 

LOL, and do you realize that I had just started FT at that point. My game is totally based upon the system and I had to get used to how badly evade/ARE is nerfed. As I remember you couldn't beat me with your Kage at all. I got to Meishou a month after you were last here and I don't play everyday either, more like once a week. Itazan told me the other day if I actually played seriously I could get to Toushou easily. Mukatsuku and Gutti can vouch for how much I play, they usually dragged me to the arcade. LOL

It's funny to me that you keep posting GE. What's the point? You don't care at all. Just retire gracefully.

FLAME ON!!!!!!

 

WHY DO YOU SUCK SO MUCH?

1. It takes a long time for ppl to get comfortable w/ this game. Exceptions: Cappo who was more or less a natural .

2. Understand this game solely on frames which has been brought up trillion of times is the major reason NAVF will never ever reach VF's fullest potential in regards to skillz & level of play. Since there are other properties within the game that frames don't account for.

3. NAVF plays againts the individual bad habits instead quickly adapting to whoever is playing. By the time we generally figure what we can do, you're already left behind & have to play catchup. Basically our adaptive game is not fluid, nor quick enough = general mental game is too rigid.

4. Lastly our view of the game is very 1 dimensional we not willing to try other techniques within our character's arsenal of attacks or defenses. Instead we just complain and whine about how come this character needs this or this character is too strong & cheap . Instead of like my buddy ReelJeffrey in NYC, who just basically said fuck it I'm going to make this technique or idea of unconventional attack to work.

Shou: I personally know you can reach beyond 10th dan but if you keep the same style, you won't be able to maintain that rank, no doubt about that.

 

Wow. I was trying to inject a little modesty here, but I guess modesty doesn't mix well with you.

As I recall, my Jeffry ranked up on your Sarah twice. As in won three or four times in a row, two times. Also, while my Kage lost to your Sarah the first few matches, it won most of the time after (what can I say, your style is abare). Whenever I nearly ranked down....guess who I looked for...yep, your Sarah.

Maybe your Meishou skills can kick my ass now, but you weren't hot stuff then. Whatever your excuse may be.

 

i remember at EC 4.5 shou lost to andy
and cried TIERS!! because andy played Pai

no tiers but your TEARS!

dont bother with shou, he has an EXCUSE for EVERYTHING!! except maybe those sunglasses. Seriously whats up with those sunglasses.

oh ya one last thing. As good as you think you are Shou, you're still a nobody in Japan, and you're the only one that cares.

lets unban shang for some real fun /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

Well yes and no. I think SoCal is on one end of the extreme, and my old approach on the other. I can give you an example outside SoCal and NYC.

I've said in the past that Maddy probably has more natural talent for a NAVF VF4 player than any other player in the country that I've met so far. If I were to abuse some tactic or strategy in the past on him or flame him for not being good enough to win against some hole in his game it wouldn't make him any better. At the same time if I discouraged him from playing his normal streamlined game all the time it wouldn't make him any stronger as well.

AFAIK from a conversation with Shou and my observations about Akiralove's approach to the game, an all out winning style, aka boring style, is discouraged in SoCal.

I would say to encourage players these days a happy medium is needed. If a player wants to play, all out boring or all out flashy let it happen so long as they are getting better. It should be upto the stronger players to advise those who are getting stuck in habits or need help improving.

The best approach to the game should be one where people are having fun and getting better at the game.

If both criteria are not being met then a person should step back and try their best to match both criteria for the players around them.

About the player profiles, I didn't mean for there to be a real ranking system I'd rather it be more like an experience system. Some players for instance are more technical, or some have been around years and know the community well. I'd like it to match the purpose of Beat Tribe, which is to encourage others to get to know who to watch out for in events. Of course it's also another step to help build the NAVF community.

 

[ QUOTE ]
CrewTW said:
PICTURE - Name: CrewTW, Character Expertise: Aoi, Lau Ranking: Jounin, Experience games: 40,000.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm literally rolling on the floor here.

 

Exactly.

 

Ok, Chiggar you said you change your attitude towards helping the community grow right?

Fine, let's really see if your views has really change

Make a Player's judgement on my Akira & Goh & my potiental then we'll see if your analyst is reflective of that change in attitude of encouraging ppl rather than still just another attempt of getting the bragging rights of "oh my stick is still bigger than all of yours approach, hahaha". Since I play the least agressive, machi, boring, d+p & repetitive style in NYC.

Except for the Hop Kick, I am guilty of abusing that way too much, hehehe. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I DARE YOU!

 

well, as far as I can tell, this is Andy posting up his opininion on a topic and he wants to see VF in NA expand just like the rest of us. congrats andy. As far as my contribution, it may still just be evo here, but we're gonna start capping match vids like crazy, cause that's what I have been working on like madd.and yall won't have to worry about the probs with the other VFO clips, I've taken care of all of that, I'm just working on making great quality clips at a decent size clip.

 

Doesn't this site already have player profiles? I'm not sure exactly what else can be added if the existing format is modified. Ranking is useless.


Before I moved back to SoCal recently, I was almost ready to retire until the sequel. Fortunately we have FT out here, so it gives me a reason to keep playing. Most of the U.S. doesn't have that luxury. They have Evo sitting in a corner at home collecting dust because <font color="blue">nobody plays this game</font>, the arcade scene is dead and there's no FT on any console. There isn't much motivation for most people to keep playing at this point and I don't blame them.

Sega of America doesn't seem to care about promoting any kind of VF here. Why should they? It's designed with arcades in mind. Fighting games are a dying genre in America and that's been obvious for a while now. Online is shitty, so the future doesn't look bright, but at least you know VF will still be around.

As long as VF is popular in Japan, AM2 will continue to make it and I'll somehow get my hands on it. That's enough motivation for me to keep playing. The rest of this stuff like "mainstream appeal" is really out of our control. VF5 is coming out soon. Hopefully more tournaments, gatherings, etc. will take place in America, but we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Shou said:

LOL, yah it requires dedication, more than SoCal has. When did you guys become competitive??? SoCal falls in neither category of experienced nor knowledgable and when have they have been competitive in America? Your scene lacks the drive to improve, always just complacent with what you're doing. Movement isn't going to help your game when you don't have a good grasp of the fundamentals.


[/ QUOTE ]

Eric,

Please stop talking about the SoCal scene like this. I consider the SoCal players as friends - people I value in my life. I do not like you to speak this way about them. You don't live here. You don't play FT or Evo with us. You don't know us. And you don't know me. I don't like belittlement as a form of motivation. I don't like it at all.

I read you go on to malign Florida by saying Andy's approach stagnated their scene. Andy has no ability to do that - to manipulate their thoughts and actions - unless he's got some sort of mind control powers.

I don't like that you say you represent America. I live here. You do not represent me. I think you represented yourself at EVO2k4. I think you represent yourself in Japan.


Talis

 

Fuck all yall Ohio is where the real deal is at.

You're all still welcome to come play anytime you want. I think.

 

Great replies guys. I expected more flamage though. The funny thing here is that if you play casually, you shouldn't even care about what I say but if you are so hardcore that someone posting on an internet forum is bothering you, well then, you better start practicing or see a professional psych. For those of you who have the misconception that I am promoting VF = life, it is very far from the truth. I didn't move to Japan to play VF, nor did I dedicate my whole life to it before. lol

I am obviously singling out Alex here since he loves to poke at me all of the time. I've had probably the best player in your crew, give me a run down of your scene as well as another top player tell me what's up and how uncompetitive it is. Sorry, movement won't help you at all. About the grouping, if you haven't noticed, the people I mentioned all have the same approach to VF and learned from each other, not to mention that we are friends lol. It's a joke between Maddy and I but in the beginning, I did train him! Yah, I lost to Andy at EC4.5 and I beat him at EVO2K4. So? Talis, you're right, the Americans at the Evo finals didn't rep SoCal since SoCal doesn't participate out of their hometown.

Modesty? How about yourself there, Jeff? LOL Jeff here, is obviously competitive, he even remembers how he beat me probably but for some reason can't follow people to dinner and gets lost, also thinks he is the next Senningiri if he lived here. There's this misconception that if you come to Japan, you automatically get good. Well, I can think of a number of people where this theory didn't pan out, one of them a Socal player, go figure. LOL Even if you played at Nishi, Jeff, you will hit a ceiling pretty quickly. You'll realize that the best players here live VF, they don't have real jobs, part timers at best, kind of the dregs of society. That's what it takes to become the best in the world, giving up everything.

If you haven't understood it by now, this is all for fun in a way. Remember that thread about a year ago with all of the flames? SuperG started that one, I hang out with him whenever he comes to town and we talk VF strats.

Anyhow, looking forward to the next player who steps up and beats down the vets, someone who has that desire to improve.