Shun help

Well, basically, I just got evo about a week ago and have been having a lot of fun on quest mode with shun. Im on the last arcade now anyway, and things have become decidedly more difficult.

I just want to know some good 'tactics' from people really. atm the moves i use at the most are , , +, +, , ++, +, ++ and when i have enough dps, + ++ and + ( I abuse those 2 more or less).

I use all the throw directions (though hardly ever ) and do fairly decent combos from all of his starters (though not the absolute maximum damage i think, i find the VF combo system difficult tbh). I also try to mix it up with his stances, but cant really find much use for the sit down one, and not too much out of the HS either (aside from abusing the throw, which im trying not to do as i read a thread about it here saying it was just AI bait).

Anyway, what i really want is possibly some help and tactics from more seasoned players who can help me raise my game /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

thx

 

Not sure exactly what sort of advice you want but here are a few moves that you didn't have in your list: ++ - It's slow but flops on any hit and you can get a nice chunk of damage. Really the key thing about this move is that it will punish a low punch. If you are very sure that your opponent will low punch then use the mule kick to stop them.

+: It's an eleven frame punch so when you are at a small disadvantage it's a good way of getting on top again. You can use it well after a blocked chouwan (+) as you will be only -2 frames. If your chouwan is guarded low then an immediate + will inturrupt your opponent. If they start to try and low punch to counter that then hit them with a mule kick (++).

++: A good sabaki because the sabaki part of the attack comes out very quickly. Only problem is you will need ten drinks to use it. A cool thing to try and attempt is if you block a string then try to use the sabaki mid way through and catch the last .

+++,: Good way to dodge and attack at the same time but usually won't work for long range attacks. Using it after a + is a good tactic.

++ - Will inturrupt your opponent's attack and you can go into drunken stance. Will counter your opponent's rising attacks if used with the right timing. Just don't let it be blocked.

or++ and ++,,: These are your sweeps and can be quite useful as they will knock your opponent down and will duck under high attacks.

As for the stances sit down stance is pretty much useless. HS isn't too bad. If your opponent guards then hit them with the catch throw if they attack go with the but they are risky if they don't work. Lying down stance has some good options and DS is very good.

I hope that helps a bit.

 

Hey Deepflow.
One of my favorite easy moves is ++. I abuse that one against the computer. Y'see, even if they block it, they'll almost always go for a throw, which they can't do (except Jeff, cause he's the man . . . and sometimes Wolf.) So throw them right after they grab and you're guarenteed to get it.
The most versitile combo is the one you set up in drunken stance (the one where he lifts one leg up.) It's especially good after ++. Follow the stance change with +++, , + (add another to the end after 16 drinks.) It'll do massive damage, and if you switch it up with +++, from drunken stance you'll keep the other player, or the AI, guessing.
Also, the sitting down stance does terribly against the computer, but it's great against some people. The computer just knows how to counter the four or five things you can do after sitting down. Bummer.
Oh, and learn how to poke, not just how to do combos. Both the computer and your friends will have trouble if you know how to poke, which is not to say it's all you should do. Shun's beauty is in his variety, so make it a goal to learn all of his moves, then try to use all of them in every fight. It's really hard, but once you learn variety, your game will definitely improve.
Shun's learning curve is kinda strange. You can pick him up first time real easy, then get really far, but after a while, things get tough. That's about what happened to you, I gather. But trust me, if you learn to use all his moves, you can't lose.
Well, I'll shut up now. /versus/images/graemlins/crazy.gif Peace!

-Chuck

 

a combo for shun:

(counter hit), ,

 

[ QUOTE ]
HungOver said:
One of my favorite easy moves is ++. I abuse that one against the computer. Y'see, even if they block it, they'll almost always go for a throw, which they can't do (except Jeff, cause he's the man . . . and sometimes Wolf.) So throw them right after they grab and you're guarenteed to get it.

[/ QUOTE ]
If it's a guaranteed throw then it's a guaranteed throw, just because some of the opponents at easier arcades miss it doesn't mean it's not a guaranteed throw. I mean, according to you, one should simply wait for their throw to whiff.. no, a double or triple throw escape guard is in line here. Play against human players, doubt they'll miss the timing for the throw more than once... and uhhh even if they do, and you try to throw them, you're NOT guaranteed to 'get it'; seeing they can enter TE commands after a failed attempt for throw.

 

hiya deepflow /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif (is this the same deepflow from TZ?). anyway cool that you're getting into evo now as well (this is techrolltv btw).

anyway yeah i also play shun as my main and i have lots of strats for him but it would be much easier for me to help you out if you could point out what specific areas you need help in (e.g what oki to use after + throw, what to do after + stagger, etc).

generally, use chouwan like crazy, although keep in mind that in FT its recovery is going to be increased so it wont be as abusable as it is now. backdash chouwan is one of your best strats (as is dodge chouwan. e.g if someone elbows you after blocking your chouwan you can dodge and get a guaranteed chouwan).

additionally shun also has a , style attack (modified version of ,+) so he can benefit from good use of ARE as well (if you can learn to use it although i recommend sticking to learning other more fundamental strategies ATM). however in general just keep in mind that you can cancel failed dodge animations with ,+ almost immediately so thats a good strat to keep in mind again people who like to wait and attack.

the backevade (|+++) into swipes are pretty good although try not to be too reliant on them to get you out of trouble. thats something a lot of starting shun players fall for and it often gets them killed against good players. to beat it out good players will often just wait a split second and then attack. that wait will let you initiate other attacks even in disadvantaged situations; e.g classic scenario is +. after it hits/CH's, instead of going for the usual backevade, try something like a + or + (because of its immense range). against my akira competition i like to try for + sometimes because they like to CD forward in anticapation of punishing the backevade with their CD options.

i'll post more strats when you have some specific questions /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif. good luck playing shun!

 

yeah, it is the same deepflow from TZ techrolltv /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

its also the same deepflow that plays/played tekken in london, so if any of you guys are the ones who played the vf4 machine in casino next to the ttt machine it would be nice to know too /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

anyway, thanks for your help everyone, it looks good. I can't practice it all right now as i have to go into town, but i will tonight.

Just wanted to say thanks for the response. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

sup deepflow.. did you know there was a european VF irc channel? just go to #vf-uk /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif i hang around in there and so do a load of losers, but hey i'm pretty cool so it's all good. /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

Uhum, minor correction.

On quakenet there's #vfse which is a Swedish / Nordic channel aswell. #vfbb is a german one. /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

/KiwE

 

Re: Uhum, minor correction.

i didn't know that. but i do know they will be vastly inferior to the godlike genius that is #vf-uk AND YOU KNOW IT. and anyway deepflow is from the UK.
/versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

GTO,
Wow, you're very antagonistic, aren't you?
Did you try it out? It works. Really! /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif I gussed it was some kind of bug in the computer's timing. Odd thing is, Wolf and Jeff sometimes get it right, which I think has something to do with the properties/ranges of their throws. Anyway, I'll stop trying to argue why it works. But it does. /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Yes, a couple of the computer players in the last arcade and the World Fighting Championship thingie do the throw escapes, but when they do, I just don't try it again. No loss. /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Good point about the human opponents. None of my friends do throw escapes well. Bummer, I should get some new VF opponents. /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif But the biggest thing with them is that they don't do it every time like the computer will. So I don't use it a lot against human opponents.
ANYway, my main point earlier was to utilize Shun's large library of moves to develop a huge vocabulary. If you can use every one of his moves, you can master Shun. I hope you at least read my whole post . . . if you didn't, I think I'll just have to cry. [sniff]

Deepflow2,
Listen to the tips you're getting here. There's some really good advice on using his moves. But, as always, remember that Shun's strength lies in his variety and unpredictability. Everything stems back to that. So don't limit yourself.
Peace.

-Chuck

 

Re: Uhum, minor correction.

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't know that. but i do know they will be vastly inferior to the godlike genius that is #vf-uk AND YOU KNOW IT. and anyway deepflow is from the UK.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know nothing. I'm from Barcelona (Que?)
Just doing a shamless plug, that's all. And you did say European. Build bridges, close the gap, global vf world, peace harmony and understandng, come to #vfse, bla bla *end*

/KiwE (Sweden won that footie game and you lot know it).

 

[ QUOTE ]
HungOver said:

ANYway, my main point earlier was to utilize Shun's large library of moves to develop a huge vocabulary. If you can use every one of his moves, you can master Shun. I hope you at least read my whole post . . .


[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry but this is false. Shun has a plathora of moves that are horrid. Most of his stance moves (except for DS moves) fall in this catagory. his + should only be used to beat out comboes. Same goes for and . + has nothing to offer you that + doesn't give. +, well maybe if you want a different okizeme tool... Same thing for +, in some cases you could surprise your opponent cuz it does have good range.

Well that's my rant for now...

 

[ QUOTE ]
Cuz said:
Sorry but this is false. Shun has a plathora of moves that are horrid. Most of his stance moves (except for DS moves) fall in this catagory. his + should only be used to beat out comboes. Same goes for and . + has nothing to offer you that + doesn't give. +, well maybe if you want a different okizeme tool... Same thing for +, in some cases you could surprise your opponent cuz it does have good range.


[/ QUOTE ]

while i agree with you in general in that shun has a lot of moves that could be labelled useless, some of the ones you mentioned do have some uses, though they are rather specialized.

handstand: you wont get a chance to use this much in general but you can stay in it after a wall combo to force the mixup. e.g if you did chouwan, jab, +,.~++ and the final hit caused a wall stun you should stay in HS and if they TR afterwards, force a HS |+ mixup.

in the event they stay on the ground, you're still in good shape because you can beat out rising attacks (both mid and low) with HS very easily (just like with ++). the only requirement is that you have to do the HS just before you see the rising attack come out (hence if you mistime it and they roll to the side first or delay their rising attack, you're screwed).
you can also avoid mid moves like elbows (against everyone's elbow except akira's) while going into HS via hcb++, but i've yet to find much practical use for this (although i have been able to force a HS a few times this way /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif).

++ i like a lot. i basically consider it a longer range version of +. its primary benefit is range and the fact that where + just whiffs over certain low attacks (like lions sweeps), ++ will beat them outright (however admittedly its low attack evasion properties aren't as good as +'s at point blank range). the move is also safe if you can space yourself properly (you can backevade from all characters elbows except akira's SDE, however last i checked you're never in range for the slap to connect).

++ you can also use this to beat out rising attacks with good spacing as well i think. however i'm forgetting the situations i used to use it in. i'll get back on this one. edit: oh yeah i think you can use the ++ if you suspect your opponent will immediately get up with a rising attack after eating a big pounce from shun (+). do a very short backdash before doing the ++. it was either that or they have to roll to the side then getup with a rising attack. i'm forgetting the specifics. check it out and tell me if it worked /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif (haven't played VF for awhile now, just waiting for FT atm).

the rest of the moves you posted i agree with you on. they're quite useless /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif. i think ++ has some merit though because of its evasiveness but i've yet to find a practical situation i can use it in.

 

Hey, I don't know how you can label moves as useless. /versus/images/graemlins/ooo.gif Every striking attack does damage if it hits. That alone makes it far from useless. Even stance changes have the ability confuse your opponent if you activate them with proper timing. Oh, and saying stuff like "his + should only be used to beat out comboes" is really kinda dumb. That move alone can cancel a lot of moves, including throw attempts.
Sorry if I sound didactic or frustrated, but I just can't understand why you would limit yourself to a certain number of moves. If you understand how to use all of Shun's huge library, you'll be better for it. I'm still working on the mastery of timing and all the counter-tactics of the game, but I haven't played it in about two months. (I just had to beat Kingdom Hearts! /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif)
Anywho, my best advice for any Shun player is to learn everything about him. He's one of the original Virtua Fighters, and one of the oddest characters in the game. It is for these reasons that I find him more fun to play than any character in any fighter ever. (Except maybe Yoshimitsu, but he's still not as cool as Shun. /versus/images/graemlins/crazy.gif )
Peace.

-Chuck

 

Hey, I don't know how you can label moves as useless. /versus/images/graemlins/ooo.gif Every striking attack does damage if it hits. That alone makes it far from useless. Even stance changes have the ability confuse your opponent if you activate them with proper timing. Oh, and saying stuff like "his + should only be used to beat out comboes" is really kinda dumb. That move alone can cancel a lot of moves, including throw attempts.
Sorry if I sound didactic or frustrated, but I just can't understand why you would limit yourself to a certain number of moves. If you understand how to use all of Shun's huge library, you'll be better for it. I'm still working on the mastery of timing and all the counter-tactics of the game, but I haven't played it in about two months. (I just had to beat Kingdom Hearts! /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif )
Anywho, my best advice for any Shun player is to learn everything about him. He's one of the original Virtua Fighters, and one of the oddest characters in the game. It is for these reasons that I find him more fun to play than any character in any fighter ever. (Except maybe Yoshimitsu, but he's still not as cool as Shun. /versus/images/graemlins/crazy.gif )
Peace.

-Chuck

 

actually is pretty much best used against combos, for which it is very good. you shouldnt use it after because the opponent can tech it and fuck you up. if you read throw then just chouwan them

here are some tricks you might not know

after mule kick (), try using /,,, to a delayed (i.e. the normal string streched out over time). if the opponent techs and tries to do rising then you very often catch him with shuns almighty ass, and get knockdown. you can stop after the if things dont look promising. (NOTE doesnt work on akira or heavyweights)

his from handstand position hits even when he is not looking at the opponent. i find this good after a mule kick to (cancel to handstand), as it confuses the hell out of tech rollers. also after back turned , its pretty nice.

his wall throw is HUGE damage. use it and abuse it. the input is back, so most people wont be breaking until you have 10 drinks. which is fine, cause this one gives you 5 drinks.

(to one footed stance) leaves you at advantage on block. sure its slow, but you have a full circular (but high) , or a distance creator in , , not to mention throw

thats all im posting, dont want you suckers to be looking for my shit at evo.

 

His from stance is half-circular!

 

[ QUOTE ]
HungOver said:

Hey, I don't know how you can label moves as useless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry man but if you don't understand how a move can be useless, find better competition. I'll agree that most moves do damage and that would be a use for them; however, some moves have horrible stats and can be replaced by other moves that can do the job better. For instance explain to me under what context you would find "usefull"?

If you want to use all his moves, be my guest. If you want to get better, try studying the properties of his moves instead of trying to find specific circumstances where you can use specific moves. I don’t want to down play your advice, but the Shun Guide was created by someone better than you or I and he omitted some of the moves. Also This is worth your time studying.

cheers.

 

Well, I'll say one more thing. The biggest reason to learn to use all his moves is that Shun's best weapon is his unpredictability. If you learn only to use the moves with the best stats, or use only powerful moves, or find patterns that work really well for you -- then someone is going to come along, learn your rhythm, and kick your ass. If you have a bigger library of moves, even ones less powerful or perfect, you can keep your opponent guessing and yourself on your toes. There is no perfect strategy, especially in a game as complex and well-constructed as VF4Evo. Trust me, against even the best competition (except maybe a god-like player who knows EVERYTHING about the game -- who I wouldn't play anyway, since I play for fun . . .) variety is Shun's best weapon.
As is obvious, this is merely an opionion, and I must concede that. I have no empirical evidence to prove my case, only personal experience. Anyway, if being a better player does mean only using a limited number of perfect moves and a simple strategy, then I'd rather stay at my own level, wherein I can compete with others in an atmosphere I enjoy. Call me a fool, but I enjoy having a good time to being the best.
Love and Peace, y'all.

-Chuck /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif