Storing Mechanics

Trying to answer two different questions (explained later) I've come up in both cases with something strange: a storing mecahnics.

The question were:
- after many frames can you cancel a back dash into an attack?
- is it possible to time a low throw as a meaty where the opponent couldn't make his way out by attacking?

Trying to solve the one about the "back dash > attack" for a fortunate choice of moves I found out a clear sign of this storing mechanics.
Another lucky coincidance was that to solve the question about the low throw as a "guaranteed" meaty I needed a way to waste a few frames (more than one) for the setup of my experiment and the frames needed to cancel out a backdash were perfect.
The final answer to the low throw question seems to strongly indicate the presence of another storing mechanics (not releted to the other).

Let's look in detail at the back dash cancel.

EDIT change the test due to a recording error that screwed up all the buffferings.

Kage vs Kage
Record (make everything whiff by doing a few back dashes at the beginning) Kage doing 6P > 44 > 6P (cancel the back dash as soon as possible)
Play it and with Kage block the high punch (+2) and then do a perfectly bufferd 66P+K (20 frames).
If done correctly you will get hit on CH by the dummy's mid elbow.
Now play it again but this time after having blocked the high elbow do 4K (19 frames).
If done correctly this time you will hit the dummy on CH.
4K does more damage than 6P so no need to test out priority.
From this we can get that you can canceled the back dash with an attack asap, specifically after (+ 4 + X + 14 = 19 => X =) 1 frame.

Now play it again and after having blocked the elbow do 3K.
The interesting and unexpected thing is that the side kick will hit the dummy's 6P in its startup phase (at its 11th frame) but the dummy will get back dash stagger!

Obviously you are not hitting him out of a back dash (which has been canceled after 1 frame) but the system has stored that info so that the dummy's attack will still register as a back dash if hit on CH.

I'm pretty sure it's not a bug but a something done on purpose to make "back dash > attack" strategy more riskier.
I think that this storing mechanics is really important to revaluate the use of back dash staggering tools and the risk/reward of a powerfull tool such as "back dash > attack".


We'll now look at the low throw meaty problem.

EDIT changed the test with a better one

Wof vs El Blaze

ONLY this time record the whole thing hitting the opponent.

Record El Blaze doing P > 6K+G > 2P+K > 6PK > 2/8 > 33P+G low throw (cancelling as fast as possible the failed evade into the low throw should take 1 frame).
With Wolf block the first P and the mash K+G eating the combo tech rolling (both sides) at the end.
If done correctly the low throw will connect almost as meaty as possible on its 10th active frame.
This type of knockdown leads to 21 frames of advantage before the lower part of the hurtbox will start to reappear.
Cancelling a failed evade into a crouch dash into a low throw takes (10 + 1 =) 11 frames.
This way the last active frame of the low throw will be after 21 frames as passed, exactly the amount of frames when Wolf's hurtbox will start to reappear.

Because there are 3 frames of limited options after a tech roll Wolf cannot attack before the 10th active frame of the El Blaze's low thorw has passed making it a situation for a guaranteed low throw.

Play it again but this time as soon as you thech rolled mash PPP: the low throw will not connect as Wolf will hit El Blaze in recovery counter hit.

From this we can get that it's impossible to have a guaranteed meaty low throw.
This could be explained by the fact that the system will store your attack attempt even if it will start after the 10th active frame of the low throw and consider it as done during the 10 active frames of the low throw.


Now I'm wondering if there could be other storing mechanics in the game.
Does any of you guys have encounter something like this?

 

Evade jail
http://virtuafighter.com/threads/guard-jail-after-successful-evade-dash-cancel-guard.17323/

 

Theoretical musings:

I believe there were guaranteed "meaty" lowthrows in vanilla when there were 0f throws, while at same time there was still that 1 frame after techroll when character can't do anything but block (which allows for meaty attacks in the first place, otherwise meaty attacks could be sidestepped).

Now, in FS, in order for throw to connect as meaty, it needs to time the active throw window to that 1 frame where opponetn can just block or not block. This in my mind would mean the throw would have to start already when the opponent is still within the techroll invulnerability. Does this make the throw "whiff"? Does the throw turn into a whiffing animation? It would mean 'meaty' throw is impossible.. In vanilla it could be done since 0f throws executed instantly, they were active from the very first frame. But in FS? I guess you proved that its not possible.

ps. interrupting attacks with backdash input in them (like Jacky 44K) with sidekick will produce a backdash stagger.

 

I'm not sure if theses cases can be called a storing mechanics:
- The kingo option select or other options select
- Attack Throw Escape

 

That is the one where on TR, you can optionselect Guard vs meaty / YingYang after meaty frames?

 

Yes you're right.
Did't think about it.
Thanks Uni <3

It's 3 frames where you ca just block/not block.
You can read about it here.

that was already known but could have been something specific for those attack with a backdash in it but now we have the proof that it's something releted only to the stored back dash

Yeah, right...The Kingo option select of my ass
That's an option select so it's involved the buffering mechanics

what's this?


Reading Manji's post it came back to my mind that during a Quick Rise you can guard lows but the animation will have the charachter standing and then crouching: in that moment you should be in that situation where you are not fully standing nor fully crouching still you will able to immediatly guard lows and avoid high throws (that usually connect on a not fully crouching opponent).
Don't know if this is a case where your 2G is stored in advance.

 

Attack throw escape is just like Evade throw escape or Reversal throw escape, but instead you attack ( with a launcher in preference ) while buffering a TE at the same time, during -10 situation mostly.
But now I realized it has nothing to do with storing anyway, it's buffering.

 

Found interesting thing about this "storing":

Record wolf doing P +K (max charge)
Block P and then try to evade in this succession (no cancels):
* to back to back
* to front to front
* to back to front
* to front to back

If you will look carefully, you will see interesting results

1) 2nd evade can not be succesfull, as the game remembers you evade the attack already

2) no matter if you 1st evade was succesfull or not, it is your SECOND evade what decides if you will get hit for MC or NH: if you evade to "correct" side it will be NH, if to wrong (to front) it will be MC.
If you evade only once the attack will miss you (evade to back) or hit you for NH (evade to front) - logically.
If you cancel your 2nd evade, you will get hit for NH only, logically as well. But this is not the point this test is trying to prove

 

How do you test that ? Because I get the back crumple instead. No backdash stagger if the move put the character back turned.
Tested on Aoi Lion Jacky Pai. The only exception seems to be Sarah's 44K.

Something funny in dojo is that when you record the dummy jacky doing PK then 44K. With your character block his PK and do immediately a side kick. You get a backdash stagger while he's doing 66K. Dojo bug ?

 

You get back dash stagger even with Sarah's 44K

Sarah vs Sarah

Record Sarah doing 66K+G > 44K

To see you have perfeclty buffered 44K (0 frames delay) play it and with Sarah blocked the mid kick (+4) ad than do a perfectly buffered 66K+G (quite easy).
If everything was done correctly you'll get hit in CH by the dumy because 66K+G is 18 frames and so even from a -4 situation the 13 frames 44K will be 1 frame faster to come out.

Now block again the 66K+G but this time do 1K (17 frames).
If done correctly this time around you'll hit the dummy on CH (1K does more damage than 66K+G so no need to test out priority)

Now that we are sure our frames are thight block the 66K+G and then do 3K.
This way you'll see you'll get the back dash stagger.

I made fun of you because you didn't make whiff your recordings and than I got punished for that making the same mistake and creating that huge mess in the Movement wiki discussion

lol

 

Totally forgot about this type of situation where the attack is slower than an evade (got a lot of that with Kage's 9K+G or a charged 236K+G)
Thank you Unicorn

this is consistant wiht the known game mechanics.
You cannot succesfully evade with a second evade attempts done on the same move but the rest of the evade mechanics is still in effect.
For this reason I don't think it's something related to a storing mechanics

 

Yeah. I believe the 1st point is related to storing mechanics (the game remembers you try to evade already) why the 2nd point is completely anti-storing (it does not matter how your 1st evade ended up, it is your 2nd evade what counts now)

 

G0d3L, you didn't read my post correctly..
I was saying that I only got the backdash stagger against Sarah's 44K when hiting her with side kick.
Against others characters with a 44P or a 44K type move what put them back turned, I got a back crumple instead.

So are you saying I should get a backdash stagger everytime against others too ?

Do you want me to teach you what is Hitstop or... ?

 

Not that Ive tested yet or anything but... Sarahs 44K is really fast, 13f. Im pretty sure other 44 input moves are slower. It might be a timing issue or something.

 

Yeah but I tested with her 44P ( even faster at 10fr ) and a side kick back crumple her.

 

I think with the backdash CH's (due to an attack that canceled the backdash) leading to the backdash stagger if you used a 3K kinda move dosen't mean the attack didnt' cancel the backdash. I think it means that any attack you used to cancel the backdash with still keeps you in the backdash state in terms of if you're CH or not. So if you get CH in anyway through a backdash, even if you cancel it with an attack or command movement (like brad's slipping), you are subject to the same 3K backstagger potential problems. I think the backdash is still getting canceled, but the negative properties of the backdash are still present and make using attacks to cancel backdash more risky.

I hope I was able to explain that idea clearly.

 

Yea i noticed this too., AM2 really did a good job in making BDCAttack High risk, average reward. Im just glad they ddnt implement BDCG(Backdash cancel guard) which would make this game like Takken. lt would make me drop this game fast.