Successful Dodge Guaranteed Attacks Formula

While digging around in the Black Book, I found this formula on page 19, in the Glossary for the Command List.

It explains how to calculate the Advantage you'll get after Dodging the oppt's Attack, taking into account the total frames of said Attack, and the current ammount of Disadvantage you're under.

The first thing the Formula explains is that for all characters, Successful Dodge is 21 frames.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Total Frames of Oppt's Attack which you're Dodging - (current Disadvantage Frames +21) = Advantage After Successful Dodge </div></div>

The example given is Dodging Jacky's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif from 4 frames of Disadvantage. An example would be if you're Lion, and Jacky just guarded your /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif.

So, looking @ Jacky's Frama Data, we can see that Jacky's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is 36 frames total.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 36 - (4 + 21) = 11 Frames of Advantage when your Dodge is finished </div></div>

So, Attack Wise, Lion is Guaranteed /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, and that's about it.

Let's look @ another situation, this time we'll say that Lion's hit Jacky w/ his /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, which actually leaves Lion @ -1 on Normal Hit, and knowing this, Jacky tries to respond w/ his /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif again, which Lion Dodges.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 36 - (1 + 21) = 14 </div></div>

Here Lion has more options, like /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif etc.

In general:

1. The Slower Execution/Longer Recovery the Attack being Dodged has, the more Advantage you'll get.

2. The less Disadvantage you're at when you Dodge, the more Advantage You'll get.

I'm not sure how the formula is effected by being @ Advantage, but Dodging while @ Advantage is kind of unusual, unless you're expecting a Reverse Nitaku. Once we have Training Mode, we can test this to see if it's further enhanced.

 

Hey, that gives quite a lot of options.
If after doging, you end up nest to opponent's side, you can succesfully (in the given example) continue with a side combo.
Am I rgiht? Please, correct me if not.

 

I'm guessing that you still have to be wary of starting an attack during or before the active frames of the attack you've evaded, correct?

About evading with advantage, I believe that's what OM is for. Not 100% sure, but the previous information on OM led me to believe it. Thanks for putting this up for us by the way /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

Yeah, this is something I didn't know for a long time in VF4, which Myke taught me about: what I call the "Empty Dodge".

Basically, it's like when you're Tech Rolling & holding /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, the oppt will Track you. When Dodging, if you dodge the first part of a String successfully, then load your Dodge with a TE or start using an Attack, frequently the 2nd hit will Track you, even if you're to the side or sometimes behind the oppt. A classic example is Sarah's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, where the Knee will actually hit, even though your Dodge of the Elbow has basically taken you behind Sarah.

Myke explained to me that by Dodging and not doing ANYTHING, the string will continue away from you, putting you further to the side/back of the oppt. IMO it's part of the balance of the game, although it seems like a horrible glitch when you're on the Defending end. I think it's the system's way of saying:

"you can't Dodge, Escape Throws, AND avoid the next hit as well"

I think as we play, Successfull Dodge -> OM might become a really interesting option, since the OM can be added once you've confirmed Seccessful Dodge.

 

Awesome find spotlite. Thanks for the info. One thing I think you should change is that "after a successful dodge" is one of the conditions where you can NOT get a 0 frame throw.

If you dodge in advantage (which like you said is very unlikely), I think it's safe to assume that you simply negate the middle number, thus increasing the advantage frames you get if you successfully evade.

Also, it might be useful to note that this applies only to a buffered evade. If you do other things like back dash evade, or simply delay it, it will be hard to calculate the exact frame values.

In my experience, it's very difficult to hit check a dodge and turn it into OM... since there are no invulnerability frames in OM, delaying it through hit checking makes it much more vulnerable. I don't think it can be done nor is it useful imo. Maybe if you do OM after a successful evade, maybe that's what you meant in the first place.

 

I remember reading how this was being used more and more by the Japanese players, and my suspicion is that it works so well because the one who succesfully evades has the advantage.

And when you use OM with advantage it's able to evade attacks, which, if I'm not mistaken, does allow you to attack your opponent while he's in the midst of a string. Not to mention the move takes you around your opponent, allowing you a side or back crumple if you have good timing and catch them with a Counter Hit. I think this is one of the scenarios Namflow mentioned when he brought up how he was crushed by OM while doing random, linear strings (Shun's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, in this case).

<u>In summary</u>: DM > OM /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif can crush people who use strings, while DM > counter attack is most useful when you evade single moves with long recovery. Is this correct?

 

But You can still dodge, escape throws, AND guard against any followups, right? Evading Throw Escape Guard if I'm correct (I'm not good with those names )

 

right, you just cannot 'avoid' it if you are inputting throw escapes, since TE's make the followup moves track. You can still guard them.

 

Srider,

after looking closer @ the book, I realized you're right. the list under the "0 frame throw" section is a list of when you can't use it I think, so I've changed my post.

Regarding Dodge -> OM, I remember seeing some Wolf videos where this was put to very good use, but maybe something has changed? I think those were Revision 1 vids, and I'm not sure if they've changed how OM interacts from Successful Evade. But, those clips made checking that you've gotten a Successful Dodge (by sound most likely) then hitting /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif seem pretty useful.

 

When I played I personally found doing OM after having succesfully evaded a string starting move was a perfect strategy where you in VF4 was unable to attack after the evade since the opponent still had the advantage. This usually puts you at a very good angle to score hits in the side or even back.

 

Jeneric, Akiralove is talking about hit checking the DM and turning it into OM by inputting P+K+G making the whole thing just one OM in total.

You are talking about doing a successful DM and then OM for a total of two different movements.

What Jeneric suggested is much more useful and doable, since it's not really possible to hit check the DM and make it into OM becauseby the time you hear the sound for DM, it's already too late to change it into OM.

 

Yo, this is DancingFighterG. I'm a vf newbie so what does DM and OM stand for. Also, is there a place to order the black book?

 

Um, DM stands for Defensive Move (the kind of evade you have in VF4 series) and OM stands for Offensive Move (the new kind of evade in VF5 that is supposed to give you some offensive advantage if successful).

 

hmmm very helpful thanks for the topic =]

 

sorry im kindda late to say this, but in VF4, there is a solid example with wolf's SS.

if you evade to wolfs's back with input commands, he gets you with MC.

if you evade to his back with no commands, you get a sucessful evade.

isnt that weird??~ also i think wolf carried alot of his previous SS proporties into VF5 too ~ ^^