Successful Evade and Slow Attacks

It's a trade.

 

Good video, should clear up some things. Thanks.

 

It's dumb how you get tracked and hit if you hold guard while evading, I don't like it.

In other news, are we using Kiwe's $10 for the up-coming circuit tournament, Akai? ^_^

 

Nice video Akai ! Very useful because you take the time to watch several cases.

But i don't like your conclusion

I understand that the main concern is about the tracking thing. A lot of people bash VF5FS because they feel like the game has an auto track engine during. So you really want to :

1 ) Refresh the memory of players who forget it was also the case in VF4/VF5

2) Show clearly with several exemple how you can deal with that engine in this game

But your video show something more interesting

The problem of auto track move is not really a problem of track but more a problem of lack of invincibility.

With the Third example and also the last example, it's clearly not the track the problem.

In training mode with one evade i can escape two moves (PP) when i'm stuck near a wall

So for me that means that during an evade you remain invincible during 23 (?) frames only if you choose to not input a button

The first example with Pai is not about track but more about lack of invulnerability i think

The reason why i think it's important is because that change a lot the way we think evade work. We think evade is an evade but Sega has choose to name that Defensive Move instead.

Evade means 3D spacing and lead to track discussions

Defensive Move means something else. If we see that move like a full invincible move and not only a 3D spacing move it can change the way we play the game

We should ban the "evade" term i think and try to really understand defensive move ^^

 

Hello Akai
If i ask you some questions like :
How long is a dash ?
How long is a backdash ?
You will answer yhat it depends if you cancel the move or not.

Example a backdash can be cancelled by an attack or by a defensive move. But to guard after a backdash it takes more time

We also know that we can cancel a defensive move by a dash before we can attack or guard.
So data about the lenght of some moves depends of what you do.

Now why assume a defensive move take 23 frames when to calculate that we used an action like attack or guard ? Maybe a defensive move lenght more time if you don't input a button.
That is why i said 23(?)

To explain me more clearly, we suppose input a button during a defensive move cause track because we get hit but maybe we get hit just because we cancel the defensive move instead like when when we cancel a dash forward with guard or an attack

In using the word evade, we avoid the fact that maybe defensive move give your character some invincibility. Invincibility which can be lost if you choose to cancel the move.

Evade let you think that it's just about spacing and tracking so when you get hit it's because the move have tracked you.
Defensive move instead can let you think you have some special properties (invicibilty) that you can lose if you cancel the move with a button

 

Yep. Succesful evade cannot be cancelled by anything.

The advantage after evading something is compared to the total frames of the move you evaded - those 23 frames it takes succesful evade to work. The advantage afterwards also depends when during the attacks animation you evade. The earlier, the better.

 

Ok i start to understand your point xD but i still hold mine

I didn't know that or maybe i read that without really understand what it means ^^;;
But that doesn't change my idea

Fist because it's still possible to cancel a successful evade with something else : Offensive move.

So maybe it's possible to cancel a successful evade at several time with several options and guard/attack is one of them. Those cancel occur only after 23 frames but they are still cancel.

Maybe a successful evade is in fact a 35 frames moves (random number bigger than 23 ) if you don't input guard/attack

Maybe cancelling a successful evade with guard is an option set by SEGA to go for a throw as soon as possible
Maybe cancelling a successful evade with an attack is an option set by SEGA to go for a side turn situation as soon as possible

As you see i really don't buy this "track explanation", if you get hit for me it's just because you are not invincible anymore
Because how can you explain Pai avoid Akira in the corner when you clearly see she cannot "really" evade due to the wall Or akira avoid from Pai but the move just look like he go through him.

I think the only way to figure out that is replicate those setup in real match and watch the replay at the end of a round to see the action with other point of view . Only noodals with his tools can do that i think

 

It's not canceled.

 

I can cancel a successful evade with an OM or maybe i missed something again ^^;;

By the way this sort of screenshot can help us :
http://www.virtuafighter.jp/dk_96.html
But only replay can provide us this

 

So in the scenario where you do a successfull evade and you do immediately an OM that's not considere a cancel? does that mean the successful evade still does all the frame's animation before you can do an OM?

 

Im pretty certain you are on record somewhere on these forums for saying the exactly opposite thing (I have decent memory) but my search-fu is not strong enough to come up with the post quickly enough. Back then you also corrected me (with the exact opposite thing), so Im not feeling too happy about this one.

Ill go along for now though.

 

I give up for now but i will comeback with more ammo soon ^^

 

i'm glad it works this way

 

Expanding upon the basic idea of using a slow move to counter-hit a successful evade & attack, I've developed some pretty strong stuff for a few select characters. For people who are familiar with using K(G-cancel) to let your opponent "evade" while you retain actual advantage, this is very similar and used in the same situations.

For some characters, using (half)circulars to catch and CH an evade is a fool's choice. There exists significantly better options for those characters that can lead to far more damage than a simple CH circular. Let's go over what we've either known since VF4 or just learned from this thread: A slow attack can still hit an opponent after they "successfully" evade it if they attempt to attack after evading (it will also make contact if they evade & guard) due to the re-aligning of characters. Also, we know that a successful evade in VF5FS is 23 non-cancelable frames (except for OM) and that the fastest jab is 11 frames. Finally, we know (or should know) that, outside of strings, evading is most useful in -6 to -9 situations. -1 to -5 can be fuzzied to avoid the greatest threats while -10 and greater disadvantages are punishable. Put it all together and we have:

23f evade + 11f jab + opp. disadvantage = potential frames for a "Surprise, I knew you were gonna evade and counter; Now eat this combo" move. Some characters are capable of turning an opponent's "successful" evade into major damage. If your character has a mid, 30f, linear move with at least 4 active frames, then you should never use a silly ol' circular. This particular frame data (mid, 30f exe, 4+ active, linear) is the best possible way to abuse this tech, but it can be made to work to a lesser degree with other moves.

Here's the math. From a disadvantage of:
-1: Evading during frames 2-24, Vulnerable from frame 25. Fastest jab active at frame 35.
-2: Evading during frames 3-25, Vulnerable from frame 26. Fastest jab active at frame 36.
-3: Evading during frames 4-26, Vulnerable from frame 27. Fastest jab active at frame 37.
-4: Evading during frames 5-27, Vulnerable from frame 28. Fastest jab active at frame 38.
-5: Evading during frames 6-28, Vulnerable from frame 29. Fastest jab active at frame 39.
-6: Evading during frames 7-29, Vulnerable from frame 30. Fastest jab active at frame 40.
-7: Evading during frames 8-30, Vulnerable from frame 31. Fastest jab active at frame 41.
-8: Evading during frames 9-31, Vulnerable from frame 32. Fastest jab active at frame 42.
-9: Evading during frame 10-32, Vulnerable from frame 33. Fastest jab active at frame 43.

As you can see, from -6 to -9, the 30f attack will make contact on the first frame of the opponent's vulnerability (30th-33rd frame). If they're attacking at all, you get a CH and big damage. If they evade & guard instead, most of the moves that fit this criteria are safe on guard and will hit meaty from -7 to -9 to reduce your disadvantage even more. Better yet, if you notice, a 30f move can't be beaten if the opponent was at -1. So this move category can beat any evade-jab counterattack from -1 to -9! At least, in theory. There could be some odd alignment issues to work out. Attacks with different frame data are usable, but not as universally.

Unfortunately, not everyone has such a move. I won't list the options for every character, but I will say that Jeffry players can thank me with a $10 Paypal donation. Full Swing Double Hammer (HCF P+K) is incredible when used this way. I found a 110 damage combo in just the few minutes I tried this with him. Consider it a half-life circular. Kage also has a nice option with 9K+G.

Obviously, setting this up requires you to be frame-tight so that your opponent wants to evade to regain advantage. It's not something to just throw out there. Any abare from your opponent will eat this alive. However, abare is dangerous of course, so the real way to defend against this mix-up (frame-tight mid/throw and evade-beater) is to lazy throw tech and wait for the specific animation of the evade-beater then evade. You will either evade late in the animation of the big move or guard the mid or escape your chosen throw direction. Either way you've regained advantage without exposing yourself.