Throw-Counterable?

yeah, so there i was, starting out on some happy update for me movelists (leon, in particular), testing various attacks of his for throw-counterability (my method: set the CPU to guard for command 1, throw for command 2; i try to punch, low punch, and crouch before i get thrown). what i found was a little more than surprising: it seems that damn near every attack on leon's move list, other than the basic six, is throw counterable. granted, this assumes that you stop dead at the attack in question (as in, if i say that the second hit of f+P,P,P is throw counterable, that assumes you stop at f+P,P; chances are, that last P will bust open the throw attempt). but even knowing that, does this strike anyone as silly? or was this commonplace in the VF series of games (i never played VF to any real level of depth)?


:: Wind-X :: DoAON :: http://doaonline.fighters.net

 

Wind X, keep in mind that crouching takes a certain number of frames. In VF3 I believe it was 11 frames. If you crouch normally, it's only after 11 frames since the crouch command input will your character be registered as not standing. Hence, it is very possible to get thrown on a technically non-throw-counterable attack if you crouch normally.

I say "normally" because crouch dashing (at least in VF!) gets you to a crouch position much faster--around 5-7 frames faster, depending on how well you buffer.

Consequently, your method of testing may not be appropriate. For example, if you do a P and you crouch afterwards and the CPU throws you, it is perhaps due to the extra 11 frames or so of animation required before going to a crouch. Why not try P(S) and P(S) again right away (assuming you haven't pushed the CPU out of throwing range)? If it is truly throw counterable the CPU should be able to throw you before you get another P(S) out. Or how about P(S) -> CD?

At the end of the day, the best method of testing is to get a human player with you or to calculate the algorithm yourself if you know the formulas.

ice-9

 

as i said, i tried a lot of that in my experimentation (P~S->P~S, P~S->d+P, P~S->D), basically trying to recall whatever quirks i could remember from the VF games. only thing i didn't try that you mentioned was the crouch dash, which honestly never occurred to me. of course, this is exactly the reason i brought it up before making anything final.

thanks for the input. hopefully this rev. of the movelists will be a lot more useful than the last. ^_^

btw, regarding buffering, have you noticed that the DoA2 buffer is monstrous? i've been of the opinion from the start that they did it to help out the analog stick on the DC, but still, it's kinda ridiculous that you can't clear it out by tapping S or something...



:: Wind-X :: DoAON :: http://doaonline.fighters.net

 

talking to myself, as usual...

went through the entire list of attacks i deemed "throw counterable" using crouch dashes as the escape, and it was no good. try it yourself: your ass gets thrown way before you have any opportunity to do anything. in fact, there appear to be three attacks (f+P, f+P,P, and db+K) that you can be thrown after, even if they hit successfully.



:: Wind-X :: DoAON :: http://doaonline.fighters.net

 

Hmmm...I'll be sure to try this out.

ice-9

 

Oh yes, definitely, the buffer is very generous. Control in DOA2 is much more forgiving than VF3.

i've been of the opinion from the start that they did it to help out the analog stick on the DC, but still, it's kinda ridiculous that you can't clear it out by tapping S or something...

What do you mean by this?

ice-9

 

one of the more annoying things about having a really wide buffer.

for example, say you want to dash in with tina and do a frankensteiner (b+S+P). no matter what, unless you pause to let that buffer wipe, you will get f,b+S+P instead. i just wish you could tap S,b+S+P and get the frankensteiner, or something like that.



:: Wind-X :: DoAON :: http://doaonline.fighters.net

 

Re: Throw-Counterable (CD escape)?

more evidence to back up my findings (unfortunately)...

i started going through the same motions for jann lee this morning, trying all of my previous escapes, plus the crouch-dash you suggested. in the first dozen attacks on the list, there are two that can only avoid the throw counter if you crouch dash. this lends support to two things: the crouch dash is a faster crouch, even in DoA2; and those leon attacks are still throw-counterable.



:: Wind-X :: DoAON :: http://doaonline.fighters.net

 

Well, I finally started to mess around with Leon the other night. I didn't go through a movelist or anything, but I can tell you right now that his P(S) and d/f+P is not throw counterable. Also, f+P is not throw counterable if it hits. I haven't tried anything else.

The thing that you have to keep in mind is that most of these frames of window is fairly narrow. There are lots of guaranteed throw opportunities in VF3tb, but against two good characters they are rarely properly taken advantage of. According to Hiro, Chibita once remarked that Lion has many attacks that are throw counterable that would make Lion appear weak on paper, but because humans are not perfect, they often miss these chances are try to go after them after a slight delay. This is why Lion is stronger than most give the character credit for.

When you think about it, the DOA2 engine does not encourage opponents to go for a counter throw after blocking, say, Leon's f+P. Most players expect a canned f+P,P. But let's say the Leon stops after f+P -- by the time the opponent realizes there is no f+P,P, it is too late and the guaranteed window is gone. There is a significant price for an attempted throw counter after blocking f+P; if Leon goes to the next canned P, you will get staggered and getting staggered is where Leon gets happy. In the VF3 engine, one the other hand, you do get countered if you get hit in a throw attempt, but you at least don't get staggered.

As for you buffer comment...there is one very simple thing Tecmo can do to solve this problem, as well as a host of other command input problems resulting from their poor 3 button set up. Copy VF3. The free and guard function should be separated out in a 4 button set up. Use G to guard and to execute holds and reserve F for movement related functions. Make it so that f+F and b+F gets you dashes (of course you can still dash with f,f and b,b). This solves a lot of buffer problems.

For those that play DOA2 on the DC with an arcade stick, you know that Tecmo must've been thinking the same exact thing. You can actually play like this to a degree; the fourth button is a button dedicated to movement. This allows you to move around without fear of accidentally pulling off holds. However, this would be unfaithful to the arcade and the equivalent of assigning say P+S to a special button.

ice-9

 

Re: Throw-Counterable (CD escape)?

"this lends support to two things: the crouch dash is a faster crouch, even in DoA2; and those
leon attacks are still throw-counterable"

After getting my DC copy back and some experiments of my own(about time ^_^), I believe many moves in the game are "throw counterable". Like for Tina, stopping at d/b+K itself askes to be whacked with a low throw in the face. There are lots more for other characters I believe, but why don't we discuss "low-throw counterable" instead?(what I'm really more interested these days ) For a start, I know that other than Tina's d+K, her d/b+P also puts her in a vulnerable spot; and the d+K series(when blocked); and the f,f+P,P,K; and the f+P,P,d+P/d+K(blocked); and many of her single hit moves like: u/b+K, u+K, Hopping K, d+S+K, f+S+K, f+P+K, f,f+P+K...so many I really felt that she should belong in the "lower tier"...

 

Re: Throw-Counterable (CD escape)?

in my experience (and i've found this rather displeasing), damn near every attack that recovers crouching is low-throw counterable. in fact, i can't think of a single one that isn't (and if the attack isn't throw counterable, it's probably because of range rather than recovery time). but given that situation, it doesn't really make sense to put tina in the lower tiers, since every other character suffers the same weakeness.

i wish i could coax team ninja into giving me the frame data...



:: Wind-X :: DoAON :: http://doaonline.fighters.net

 

Re: Throw-Counterable (CD escape)?

That's the thing! Almost all moves that recover crouching is low throw counterable(finally checked that out), as in the case of Tina she still has too many of them! That's the reason I'm saying she should just belong somewhere near the bottom(moves alone)...

Ps: I've just ordered my Dead Or Alive 2 Perfect Guide Book from Kinokuniya, if it contains frame data, you'll be the first to know ^_^

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Acel on 7/21/00 02:53 PM.</FONT></P>