Vanessa's Version C Command List Errata

Discussion in 'General' started by Deniz, May 22, 2002.

  1. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    I have enough material to begin posting another errata thread. This is by no means complete yet, and I will be adding more as further testing ensues. For convenience, I will be using [MT] to stand for "from Muay Thai stance."

    1. The hit level for the PPPK Shadow Combo High Kick should be changed from H to H*.
    2. The f+P Back Knuckle should have its reversal level changed from EL to MP. It also needs a Sober (DP –1) note.
    3. The following are those midlevel kicks I’ve come across so far that need to be updated from MK to SK (I’m fairly sure there will be more): f+PKK Back Knuckle Stream; f+Pdf+K Back Knuckle Toe Kick; b+K Counter Strike; df+K Bone Crush Middle (both versions); b+K+G Switch Back Middle; b,b+K+G Back Charge Kick (both versions); (hold G) ub+K Grinding Middle; (hold G) db+K Grinding Toe; (d) P+K+G Barrier Kick; (u) P+K+G Barrier Kick.
    4. The f+PKK Back Knuckle Stream also needs a Sober (DP –1) note and a Low Guard Stagger note.
    5. The f,f+P Ducking Body Blow and the uncharged version of the df+K Bone Crush Middle need a Crouch Stagger note. The charged version of the df+K Bone Crush Middle should have its Guard Stagger note updated to a High Guard Stagger note.
    6. The f,f+PP Ducking Body Smash needs its damage corrected from 18 to 20, and it also causes a Stumble on MC.
    7. The db+P Defensive Elbow needs its damage corrected as well, from 22 to 18. It is also a Force Crouch move (and hence provides a Slam on Air Hit as well).
    8. The df+PP Intruder Combo needs a “Stomach Crumble on MC†note and a “Sober (DP –1)†note.
    9. The d+KPP Stopping Low Smash needs a “Head Over Heels†note and a “Sober (DP –1)†note too.
    10. The f+K Cut-in Knee Kick does a Low Guard Stagger.
    11. The reversal level for the f,f+K Shadow Slicer should be corrected from MK to MCR.
    12. The b+K Counter Strike causes a Stumble on hit.
    13. The b,f+K Parrying High Kick is also a Sabaki vs. HE.
    14. The u+K Right Angle Toe Kick is listed as MK reversible, but I believe it can’t be reversed at all.
    15. The d+P+K Bomber Strike is a Force Crouch move (and thus also does a Slam on Air Hit).
    16. I think, after futile attempts, that the b, df+P+K does not Sabaki vs. LK as listed (but does Sabaki vs. LP).
    17. The K+G Guard Crush Tornado should have its hit level amended from H to H*.
    18. The f+K+G Heel Kick inflicts a Flop.
    19. The uncharged version of the b,b+K+G Back Charge Kick should have a Low Guard Stagger note added, and its “Stomach Crumble†note amended to “Stomach Crumble vs. non-defenders.†The charged version of the b,b+K+G Back Charge Kick should have its damage corrected from 45 to 38, and its “Guard Stagger†note updated to “High Guard Stagger.â€Â
    20. The db+K+G Leg Bomber does a Slam on Air Hit.
    21. The (u) P+K+G Barrier Kick should have its damage corrected from 20 to 25.
    22. The following are those low level attacks that recover high which I have so far found: PPK One Two Low; d+K Stopping Low; f,f+K+G Leg Cut Low; [MT] d+K Stopping Low; [MT] (from crouch) Low Kick; [MT] f,f+Kd+K Step-In Knee Low Kick (which is an L* attack); [MT] db+K Low Kick.
    23. Something odd is going on with the (hold G) uf+P Grinding Slicer and the (hold G) df+P Grinding Back Knuckle attacks. They sometimes hit as M attacks and are MP reversible, and other times hit as H* attacks and are HP reversible. I have not yet figured out what governs this. Also, there are frame advantage numbers in the Hit & MC columns, which I don’t understand, since the attacks knock down with a Head Crumble.
    24. Myke: There is a problem with the use of zeros in the frame advantage columns. Sometimes you erroneously use them in place of a hyphen (to indicate there is no data, due to knockdown, etc.), as with the PPPK Shadow Combo High Kick, and at other times it appears to stand for the actual number zero (indicating equal advantage) as with the MC column for the f+P Back Knuckle.
     
  2. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    Here are a few interim comments, with more to come:
    1.The [MT] d+P Defensive Elbow and [MT]D+P Defensive Elbow are really just the same move. In any case, they and the [MT] df+PK Upper Heel Sword are Force Crouch moves.
    2.[MT] f+P Elbow needs a Crouch Stagger note.
    3. On the other hand, the following need the more limited Crouch Guard Stagger note: [MT] f+PPK Elbow Storm; [MT] b,f+PPPK Assault Combination; [MT] K Stopping Knee; [MT] KKPK Stopping Knee Bomber 2; [MT] d+KPK Stopping Low Knee Bomber.
    4. The [MT] b,f+PPP Chopping Right does a Stomach Crumble on MC.
    5. The reversal level for the [MT] K Stopping Knee needs to be changed from MK to KN.
    6. The [MT] KKPP Smash Out and the [MT] d+KPP Low Stopping Low Smash should each have a "Head Over Heels" note.
     
  3. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    I had posted:
    23. Something odd is going on with the (hold G) uf+P Grinding Slicer and the (hold G) df+P Grinding Back Knuckle attacks. They sometimes hit as M attacks and are MP reversible, and other times hit as H* attacks and are HP reversible.

    Well, I think I finally got this worked out. It requires a bit of a wordy explanation. The Grinding Slicer (called Gliding Slicer by the PS2 command list) has hit level H* (not M), and reversal level HP (not MP), and does 19 damage and a Head Crumble as indicated. The command for it is (hold G) df+P when Vanessa is to the left of her opponent with her left leg forward, or if she is to the right of her opponent with her right leg forward. The command for it is instead (hold G) uf+P when she is to the left of her opponent with her right leg forward, or to the right of her opponent with her left leg forward. If you do (hold G) df+P when she is to the left of her opponent with right leg forward, or to the right of her opponent with left leg forward, or if you do (hold G) uf+P when she is is to the left of her opponent with left leg forward, or to the right of her opponent with her right leg forward, the Grinding Back Knuckle (called Gliding Back Knuckle by the PS2) comes out instead. The Grinding/Gliding Back Knuckle has hit level M, is MP reversible, while dishing out 19 damage and a Head Crumble, as already noted on the list.
     
  4. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    1. The (hold G) u+P Intruder Hook and the (hold G) d+P Intercept Body Blow and the [MT] (hold G) u+P Intruder Hook and the [MT] (hold G) d+P Intercept Body each have a "Stomach Crumble on MC" note. The MC should be replaced by MC/mc, or by the word "counter," since a minor counter hit also results in a Stomach Crumble.
    2. The Muay Thai Style section should have an entry for "Set Up Defensive Style" P+K+G; in other words, a move showing that entering the command P+K+G while Vanessa is in Muay Thai Style returns her to Defensive Style.
    3. Update the hit level for the [MT] b,f+K Slicer High to H*.
    4. The [MT] b,f+KK Slicer Hurricane should have its hit and reversal levels changed from H and HK to M and MK.
    5. The [MT] df+K Short Jump Middle should have its reversal level updated to SK, and a Crouch Stagger note added.
    6. The [MT] P+KPK Heavy Hook Combination should have a Crouch Guard Stagger note.
    7. The [MT] f+P+K Lightning Elbow and the [MT] f+K+G Heel Kick each need a Flop note.
    8. The [MT] f,f+P+K Step-in Back Knuckle should have its reversal level corrected from EL to MP.
    9. The [MT] f,f+ P+KPP Heavy Hook Tornado does a Stomach Crumble on MC. Also, I am not sure why there is a -6 in the Hit column, since it's a knockdown move even on a normal hit.
    10. The [MT] b+K+G Switch Back Middle should have its reversal level updated to SK.
    11. The two versions of the [MT] b,b+K+G Back Charge Kick also should have their reversal levels updated to SK. The uncharged version should have its Stomach Crumble note changed to "Stomach Crumble vs. non-defender," and a Crouch Guard Stagger note should be added. The charged version should have its "Guard Stagger" note changed to a "High Guard Stagger" note.
     
  5. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    To be consistent with the command list, I will start using [MTS] instead of [MT]:
    1. The commands for the Grinding Middle and the Grinding Toe (and hence also for the hit throw combos they lead into) are not quite right. The correct ones follow an analagous pattern to that which I mentioned previously concerrning the Grinding Slicer and Grinding Back Knuckle. While holding G, inputting ub+K (as listed) will give the Grinding Middle only if Vanessa is on the left side of the screen with her right foot forward, or on the right side of the screen with her left foot forward. When she is on the left side with her left foot forward, or the right side with her right foot forward, inputting db+K is instead required. The commands for the Grinding Toe are the converse of all of these (hold G then ub+K when she's on the left side and left foot forward, or right side and right foot forward, etc.).
    2. The damage for the [MTS] KKPK Stopping Knee Bomber 2 should be corrected from 18 to 15.
    3. Missing from the list are four throws from the Muay Thai Style: [MTS] db+P+G; [MTS] (left side) P+G; [MTS] d+P+K+G; [MTS] df+P+K+G.
    4. The db+P+G Replacement Throw (as well as the not-listed [MTS] db+P+G) leave the opponent backturned.
    5. I believe the parenthetical "right hand hold" portions of the commands in the Defensive Style Reversals section for the Hold High Kick, Hold Low Kick, and Right Arm Break should be replaced by "closed stance," and the "left hand hold" for the Hold Toe Kick, Hold Shin Kick, and Arrest Hold Knee by "open stance."
    6. There are notes for the b+P+K and db+P+K Prison Arm Lock reversals concerning escapes, but no indication as to how to escape.
    7. There are actually two different limb specific versions of the b+P+K reversal: the Leg Hold Throw and the Leg Catch Throw. Same for the db+P+K reversal.
    8.The db+P+K Leg Hold Smash reverses SK attacks, not MK.
    9. Three Hop Attacks, the Double Knuckle, the Step Hook Kick, and the Step Heel Kick, cannot be reversed by normal reversals. The Double Knuckle does a Slam on Air Hit.
    10. The reversal level for the (MTS, asc) P Elbow hop attack should be corrected from EL to MP. It also does a Slam on Air Hit.
    11. The db+K Soccer Ball Kick ground attack should be separated into two entries, a DS version, and an MTS version.
    12. The back turned (DS) P+K Face Crush Elbow and the back turned (MTS) P+K Face Crush Elbow should have their hit levels updated to H*, and a "Remains Back Turned" note should be added to each
    13. The React Round Kick wall attack needs a Guard Stagger note.
    14. The [MTS] D+K Low Kick and the [MTS] db+K Low Kick are the same exact move.
     
  6. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    Reversal levels for Vanessa's rising attacks:
    All of Vanessa's low rising attacks are SW.
    Midlevel rising attacks:
    Face up feet towards: All are MCR.
    Face up head towards: All are SK.
    Face down feet towards:
    1. no roll (no delay): MK
    2. delay: SK
    3. longer delay: MCR
    4. sideroll: MK
    5. backroll: SK
    Face down head towards:
    1. no roll (no delay): MCR
    2. delay: MCR
    3. sideroll: SK
    4. backroll: MCR
     
  7. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    1. Versus Shun: If the /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif Heavy Straight is continued into the /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif Body Straight, then the final Sobering effect on Shun is just (DP -1), not (DP -1), (DP-1). Similarly, the final result is (DP -1) if the /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif Body Straight is continued into the /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif Chopping Right. And finally, the entire Sobering effect is negated by continuing into the /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif Assault Combination.
    2. The three Front Sleeper Hit Throws, namely/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif(counter hit)/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif, and /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif(counter hit)/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif, and /versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif(hit)/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif, can all be "escaped" by "struggling," and this can result in reduced damage. Just as reduced damage for Exact Recovery is listed for some throws, this reduced damage from "struggling" should also be listed. Although I am not 100% positive (Myke, you're the Vanessa expert!), I believe the final damage can be 0, 10, 20, 30, or 40, depending on how early the Sleeper Hit is "escaped." BTW, is that also the reason for the unusual "10, 10, 10, 10 Damage" notes for these throws?
    3. Similarly, the reduced damage for escaping the /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif Prison Arm Lock or the /versus/images/commands/db.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif Arm Lock should be noted. I think the opponent only suffers 20 damage (from the "punch") if he/she escapes the first part (and I think escaping the second part still results in full damage), but again, Myke, I defer to your Vanessa expertise.
    4. There should be notes for the Right Hand Hold and Left Hand Hold reversals indicating that they too can be "escaped" by "struggling." Further, the /versus/images/commands/k.gif Hold High Kick, the /versus/images/commands/k.gif Hold Toe Kick, the /versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif Hold Low Kick, and the /versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif Hold Shin Kick follow-ups all immediately revert back to the Right/Left Hand Hold if there have not already been two previous /versus/images/commands/k.gif//versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif follow-ups, and this too is noteworthy.
    5. The /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif(hit)/versus/images/commands/p.gif Pass Guard Knuckle needs a "Guard with G" note, similar to the notes for the attacking follow-ups to Akira's Pull-in Throw.
     
  8. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    6. If you go into the PS2 VF4 Command Training to "practice" Vanessa's (back turned, DS) /versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif Turn Straight, and input the command /versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif or /versus/images/commands/D.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif instead of /versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif, the game won't recognize this as a successful completion of the move. If the advice block is open, it will say something to the effect that you are inputting the command too slow. This doesn't happen with the (back turned, MTS) /versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif Turn Straight -- in that case inputting /versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif or /versus/images/commands/D.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif works fine. This leads me to the conclusion that (back turned, DS) /versus/images/commands/df.gif(or /versus/images/commands/D.gif) /versus/images/commands/p.gif is a different (and undocumented) move than (back turned, DS) /versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif.
     
  9. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    7. The /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif Parrying High Kick is also a Sabaki vs. KN attacks.
    8. The /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif Cut-in recovers low.
    9. The /versus/images/commands/D.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif Sit Down Low Kick should have a note indicating it can be done from a standing position using the /versus/images/commands/db.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif command. A similar note should be appended to the [MTS]/versus/images/commands/D.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif Low Kick, and the [MTS]/versus/images/commands/db.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif Low Kick entry should then be deleted.
    10. Daily VF4 shows the Grd for her /versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif One Two Low as -15, not -14; and the Hit for her [MTS]/versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif Stopping Low Combo as -1, not +1.
     
  10. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    A couple of clarifications before proceeding: I noticed that in earlier posts in this thread I use the term "low guard stagger." This is the same as a "crouch guard stagger," but at that time we had not yet agreed on a standard terminology. Also: </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    The /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif(hit)/versus/images/commands/p.gif Pass Guard Knuckle needs a "Guard with G" note, similar to the notes for the attacking follow-ups to Akira's Pull-in Throw.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    I just want to clarify that this doesn't mean holding G as you would with a normal guard; instead, to "escape" the attack and avoid damage, you have to tap G at the moment of being struck.

    A new comment, regarding the exceptions by Aoi's YY stance to normal reversal levels of Vanessa's attacks:
    11. Aoi's YY stance does not reverse/Inashi either the (back turned, DS)/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif Face Crush Elbow or the (back turned, MTS)/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif Face Crush Elbow, both of which are normally HE reversible. Another way to look at this is to say the only HE attack that can be reversed by Aoi's YY stance is Vanessa's /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif Lightning Elbow. Further, Aoi's YY stance Inashis the (mid)/versus/images/commands/k.gif Step Hook Kick as an MK "reversal," and the (desc)/versus/images/commands/k.gif Step Heel Kick as an SK "reversal," even though neither attack can be reversed by other standard reversals.
     
  11. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    12. The following attacks should have their hit levels updated from H to H*: /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif Parrying Combination; /versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif Heavy Hook Combo; [MTS]/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif Heavy Hook Knuckle; [MTS]/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif Neck Slicer; [MTS]/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif Guard Crush Tornado. With regards to this last one: A clarification. In comment 17 of my first post, I said: The K+G Guard Crush Tornado should have its hit level amended from H to H*. I was referring to the [DS]/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif Crush Tornado; so both the [DS]/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif Crush Tornado and the [MTS]/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif Crush Tornado are special high attacks.
    13. The /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif Lightning Lancer Takedown can be G-canceled. In fact, it can be canceled by pressing K or P.
    14. ETP in his/her Vanessa FAQ made mention of the fact that the (left/right hand hold) /versus/images/commands/k.gif Hold High/Toe Kicks and /versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif Hold Shin/Low Kicks can be guarded by normal means (/versus/images/commands/g.gif or /versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/g.gif respectively). Since a successful guard leads to an escape from the Hand Hold, it would be worthwhile to include this in a note. /versus/images/commands/g.gif (or /versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/g.gif) can be held, unlike the /versus/images/commands/g.gif "escape" from the /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif(hit)/versus/images/commands/p.gif Pass Guard Knuckle.
    15. I had earlier mentioned that the Command List doesn't say how to escape the /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif Prison Arm Lock or the /versus/images/commands/db.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif Prison Arm Lock, but I never mentioned how either. I believe it should be noted that the /versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif command is used to escape them.
     
  12. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    1. The hit level for the PPPK Shadow Combo High Kick should be changed from H to H*.

    Updated.

    2. The f+P Back Knuckle should have its reversal level changed from EL to MP. It also needs a Sober (DP –1) note.

    Updated.

    3. The following are those midlevel kicks I’ve come across so far that need to be updated from MK to SK (I’m fairly sure there will be more): f+PKK Back Knuckle Stream;
    f+Pdf+K Back Knuckle Toe Kick;
    b+K Counter Strike;
    df+K Bone Crush Middle (both versions);
    b+K+G Switch Back Middle;
    b,b+K+G Back Charge Kick (both versions);
    (hold G) ub+K Grinding Middle;
    (hold G) db+K Grinding Toe;
    (d) P+K+G Barrier Kick;
    (u) P+K+G Barrier Kick.


    Updated.

    4. The f+PKK Back Knuckle Stream also needs a Sober (DP –1) note and a Low Guard Stagger note.

    Updated and used "Crouch Guard Stagger" instead.

    5. The f,f+P Ducking Body Blow and the uncharged version of the df+K Bone Crush Middle need a Crouch Stagger note. The charged version of the df+K Bone Crush Middle should have its Guard Stagger note updated to a High Guard Stagger note.

    Updated.

    6. The f,f+PP Ducking Body Smash needs its damage corrected from 18 to 20, and it also causes a Stumble on MC.

    Updated.

    7. The db+P Defensive Elbow needs its damage corrected as well, from 22 to 18. It is also a Force Crouch move (and hence provides a Slam on Air Hit as well).

    Updated.

    8. The df+PP Intruder Combo needs a “Stomach Crumble on MC†note and a “Sober (DP –1)†note.

    Updated.

    9. The d+KPP Stopping Low Smash needs a “Head Over Heels†note and a “Sober (DP –1)†note too.

    Updated.

    10. The f+K Cut-in Knee Kick does a Low Guard Stagger.

    Updated.

    11. The reversal level for the f,f+K Shadow Slicer should be corrected from MK to MCR.

    Updated.

    12. The b+K Counter Strike causes a Stumble on hit.

    Updated.

    13. The b,f+K Parrying High Kick is also a Sabaki vs. HE.

    Updated.

    14. The u+K Right Angle Toe Kick is listed as MK reversible, but I believe it can’t be reversed at all.

    Updated.

    15. The d+P+K Bomber Strike is a Force Crouch move (and thus also does a Slam on Air Hit).

    Updated.

    16. I think, after futile attempts, that the b, df+P+K does not Sabaki vs. LK as listed (but does Sabaki vs. LP).

    Updated.

    17. The K+G Guard Crush Tornado should have its hit level amended from H to H*.

    Updated.

    18. The f+K+G Heel Kick inflicts a Flop.

    Updated.

    19. The uncharged version of the b,b+K+G Back Charge Kick should have a Low Guard Stagger note added, and its “Stomach Crumble†note amended to “Stomach Crumble vs. non-defenders.†The charged version of the b,b+K+G Back Charge Kick should have its damage corrected from 45 to 38, and its “Guard Stagger†note updated to “High Guard Stagger.â€Â

    Updated. But my brain is beginning to fry. Is "vs. non-defenders" not the same as a normal hit? In the uncharged case it stomach crumbles on normal hit (i.e. guard not being held). If the opponent is crouch guarding, they're staggered. The hit effects are mutually exclusive.

    20. The db+K+G Leg Bomber does a Slam on Air Hit.

    Updated.

    21. The (u) P+K+G Barrier Kick should have its damage corrected from 20 to 25.

    Updated.

    22. The following are those low level attacks that recover high which I have so far found:
    PPK One Two Low;
    d+K Stopping Low;
    f,f+K+G Leg Cut Low;
    [MT] d+K Stopping Low;
    [MT] (from crouch) Low Kick;
    [MT] f,f+Kd+K Step-In Knee Low Kick (which is an L* attack);
    [MT] db+K Low Kick.


    Updated.

    23. Something odd is going on with the (hold G) uf+P Grinding Slicer and the (hold G) df+P Grinding Back Knuckle attacks. They sometimes hit as M attacks and are MP reversible, and other times hit as H* attacks and are HP reversible. I have not yet figured out what governs this. Also, there are frame advantage numbers in the Hit & MC columns, which I don’t understand, since the attacks knock down with a Head Crumble.

    The numbers were leftovers from version B where these attacks didn't have the same effects (i.e. no head crumble). They're listed as M level attacks in the Blue/White Books.

    24. Myke: There is a problem with the use of zeros in the frame advantage columns. Sometimes you erroneously use them in place of a hyphen (to indicate there is no data, due to knockdown, etc.), as with the PPPK Shadow Combo High Kick, and at other times it appears to stand for the actual number zero (indicating equal advantage) as with the MC column for the f+P Back Knuckle.

    The 'null' values in the database weren't being entered properly. Should be fixed now.

    ________


    1.The [MT] d+P Defensive Elbow and [MT]D+P Defensive Elbow are really just the same move. In any case, they and the [MT] df+PK Upper Heel Sword are Force Crouch moves.

    Updated. Combined d and D versions.

    2.[MT] f+P Elbow needs a Crouch Stagger note.

    Updated.

    3. On the other hand, the following need the more limited Crouch Guard Stagger note:
    [MT] f+PPK Elbow Storm;
    [MT] b,f+PPPK Assault Combination;
    [MT] K Stopping Knee;
    [MT] KKPK Stopping Knee Bomber 2;
    [MT] d+KPK Stopping Low Knee Bomber.


    Updated.

    4. The [MT] b,f+PPP Chopping Right does a Stomach Crumble on MC.

    Updated.

    5. The reversal level for the [MT] K Stopping Knee needs to be changed from MK to KN.

    Updated.

    6. The [MT] KKPP Smash Out and the [MT] d+KPP Low Stopping Low Smash should each have a "Head Over Heels" note.

    Updated.

    ________

    I had posted:
    > 23. Something odd is going on with the (hold G) uf+P Grinding Slicer and the (hold G) df+P Grinding Back Knuckle attacks. They sometimes hit as M attacks and are MP reversible, and other times hit as H* attacks and are HP reversible.

    Well, I think I finally got this worked out. It requires a bit of a wordy explanation. The Grinding Slicer (called Gliding Slicer by the PS2 command list) has hit level H* (not M), and reversal level HP (not MP), and does 19 damage and a Head Crumble as indicated. The command for it is (hold G) df+P when Vanessa is to the left of her opponent with her left leg forward, or if she is to the right of her opponent with her right leg forward. The command for it is instead (hold G) uf+P when she is to the left of her opponent with her right leg forward, or to the right of her opponent with her left leg forward. If you do (hold G) df+P when she is to the left of her opponent with right leg forward, or to the right of her opponent with left leg forward, or if you do (hold G) uf+P when she is is to the left of her opponent with left leg forward, or to the right of her opponent with her right leg forward, the Grinding Back Knuckle (called Gliding Back Knuckle by the PS2) comes out instead. The Grinding/Gliding Back Knuckle has hit level M, is MP reversible, while dishing out 19 damage and a Head Crumble, as already noted on the list.


    It's probably easier to explain if you describe the inputs relative to Vanessa's front and back (using the Escape terminology). Knowing that a character's natural stance is with the right foot forward, 1P's front would be in the uf direction, and 1Ps back would be in the df direction.

    So, the Gliding Slicer (H*, HP) is performed by inputting to Vanessa's front. For 1P in natural stance, this is (G) uf+P. For 2P in natural stance, this is (G) df+P.

    The Gliding Back Knuckle (M, MP) is performed by inputting to Vanessa's back. For 1P in natural stance, this is (G) df+P. For 2P in natural stance, this is (G) uf+P.

    I've updated the names (Grinding to Gliding) as well as hit and reversal levels. I've also prefixed each command with 'natural stance' to each of the Hold G series as well as including a note for the reverse stance input.

    ________


    1. The (hold G) u+P Intruder Hook and the (hold G) d+P Intercept Body Blow and the [MT] (hold G) u+P Intruder Hook and the [MT] (hold G) d+P Intercept Body each have a "Stomach Crumble on MC" note. The MC should be replaced by MC/mc, or by the word "counter," since a minor counter hit also results in a Stomach Crumble.

    Updated.

    2. The Muay Thai Style section should have an entry for "Set Up Defensive Style" P+K+G; in other words, a move showing that entering the command P+K+G while Vanessa is in Muay Thai Style returns her to Defensive Style.

    Updated.

    3. Update the hit level for the [MT] b,f+K Slicer High to H*.

    Updated.

    4. The [MT] b,f+KK Slicer Hurricane should have its hit and reversal levels changed from H and HK to M and MK.

    Updated.

    5. The [MT] df+K Short Jump Middle should have its reversal level updated to SK, and a Crouch Stagger note added.

    Updated.

    6. The [MT] P+KPK Heavy Hook Combination should have a Crouch Guard Stagger note.

    Updated.

    7. The [MT] f+P+K Lightning Elbow and the [MT] f+K+G Heel Kick each need a Flop note.

    Updated.

    8. The [MT] f,f+P+K Step-in Back Knuckle should have its reversal level corrected from EL to MP.

    Updated.

    9. The [MT] f,f+ P+KPP Heavy Hook Tornado does a Stomach Crumble on MC. Also, I am not sure why there is a -6 in the Hit column, since it's a knockdown move even on a normal hit.

    Updated. The -6 is in the Blue/White books too.

    10. The [MT] b+K+G Switch Back Middle should have its reversal level updated to SK.

    11. The two versions of the [MT] b,b+K+G Back Charge Kick also should have their reversal levels updated to SK. The uncharged version should have its Stomach Crumble note changed to "Stomach Crumble vs. non-defender," and a Crouch Guard Stagger note should be added. The charged version should have its "Guard Stagger" note changed to a "High Guard Stagger" note.

    Updated. Same as item no.19 in a previous post.

    ________


    2. The damage for the [MTS] KKPK Stopping Knee Bomber 2 should be corrected from 18 to 15.

    Updated.

    3. Missing from the list are four throws from the Muay Thai Style: [MTS] db+P+G; [MTS] (left side) P+G; [MTS] d+P+K+G; [MTS] df+P+K+G.

    They're not missing. Those throws you listed are already there but without specific mention to either DS or MTS since they're common to both.

    4. The db+P+G Replacement Throw (as well as the not-listed [MTS] db+P+G) leave the opponent backturned.

    Updated.

    5. I believe the parenthetical "right hand hold" portions of the commands in the Defensive Style Reversals section for the Hold High Kick, Hold Low Kick, and Right Arm Break should be replaced by "closed stance," and the "left hand hold" for the Hold Toe Kick, Hold Shin Kick, and Arrest Hold Knee by "open stance."

    It's not just a matter of open or closed stance. It really depends on which stance Vanessa is in (natural and reverse) and which hand (right or left) the opponent is attacking with.

    Vanessa will always hold the opponent with her leading hand. The different followups will ultimately depend on whether the arm being held is in line with vanessa's leading hand, or is crossing over to it.

    In natural stance (right foot forward, hence right hand is forward), if the opponent attacks with their left hand, then Vanessa will hold their left hand and this is the Left Hand Hold position.

    In natural stance, if the opponent attacks with their right hand, then Vanessa will hold their right hand and this is the Right Hand Hold position.

    If you change from natural to reverse stance, then you must change Left to Right, and Right to Left in the above two examples. But then this screws up the nomenclature for the followups, because in reverse stance you'll be able to hold the opponent's right hand and still do an Arrest Hold Knee. This conflicts with the current Command Lists because the Arrest Hold Knee is listed as a Left Hand Hold followup only.

    So, again, I'll prefix the commands with 'natural stance', and add a note to switch left and right for reverse stance in the notes column.

    6. There are notes for the b+P+K and db+P+K Prison Arm Lock reversals concerning escapes, but no indication as to how to escape.

    Updated.

    7. There are actually two different limb specific versions of the b+P+K reversal: the Leg Hold Throw and the Leg Catch Throw. Same for the db+P+K reversal.

    Updated.

    8.The db+P+K Leg Hold Smash reverses SK attacks, not MK.

    Updated.

    9. Three Hop Attacks, the Double Knuckle, the Step Hook Kick, and the Step Heel Kick, cannot be reversed by normal reversals. The Double Knuckle does a Slam on Air Hit.

    Updated.

    10. The reversal level for the (MTS, asc) P Elbow hop attack should be corrected from EL to MP. It also does a Slam on Air Hit.

    Updated.

    11. The db+K Soccer Ball Kick ground attack should be separated into two entries, a DS version, and an MTS version.

    Why? It's identical for both, and the command shown is not specific to one.

    12. The back turned (DS) P+K Face Crush Elbow and the back turned (MTS) P+K Face Crush Elbow should have their hit levels updated to H*, and a "Remains Back Turned" note should be added to each

    Updated.

    13. The React Round Kick wall attack needs a Guard Stagger note.

    Updated.

    14. The [MTS] D+K Low Kick and the [MTS] db+K Low Kick are the same exact move.

    Combined them into one entry.

    ________

    Reversal levels for Vanessa's rising attacks:
    All of Vanessa's low rising attacks are SW.
    Midlevel rising attacks:
    Face up feet towards: All are MCR.
    Face up head towards: All are SK.
    Face down feet towards:
    1. no roll (no delay): MK
    2. delay: SK
    3. longer delay: MCR
    4. sideroll: MK
    5. backroll: SK
    Face down head towards:
    1. no roll (no delay): MCR
    2. delay: MCR
    3. sideroll: SK
    4. backroll: MCR


    Updated. Omitted longer delay due to lack of frame data.

    to be continued...
     
  13. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    1. Versus Shun: If the b,f+P Heavy Straight is continued into the b,f+PP Body Straight, then the final Sobering effect on Shun is just (DP -1), not (DP -1), (DP-1). Similarly, the final result is (DP -1) if the Body Straight is continued into the Chopping Right. And finally, the entire Sobering effect is negated by continuing into the Assault Combination.

    The Sober effects of individual moves in a combo aren't cumulative by default:.

    b,f+P is (DP-1)
    b,f+PP is (DP-1)
    b,f+PPP is (DP-1)
    b,f+PPPP doesn't Sober

    which is correct. I think I should add a note in the legend under the Sober effect to describe the non-cumulative sober effect of individual moves within a combo.

    2. The three Front Sleeper Hit Throws, namely f+Pdf+K (counter hit)f+P+G, and f+K (counter hit)f+P+G, and df+K+G (hit)f+P+G, can all be "escaped" by "struggling," and this can result in reduced damage. Just as reduced damage for Exact Recovery is listed for some throws, this reduced damage from "struggling" should also be listed. Although I am not 100% positive (Myke, you're the Vanessa expert!), I believe the final damage can be 0, 10, 20, 30, or 40, depending on how early the Sleeper Hit is "escaped." BTW, is that also the reason for the unusual "10, 10, 10, 10 Damage" notes for these throws?

    Yes, that is the reason for the 10,10,10,10 damage notes. I'll add that the sleeper hold damage can be reduced by struggling.

    3. Similarly, the reduced damage for escaping the b+P+K Prison Arm Lock or the db+P+K Arm Lock should be noted. I think the opponent only suffers 20 damage (from the "punch") if he/she escapes the first part (and I think escaping the second part still results in full damage), but again, Myke, I defer to your Vanessa expertise.

    Updated.

    4. There should be notes for the Right Hand Hold and Left Hand Hold reversals indicating that they too can be "escaped" by "struggling." Further, the Hold High Kick, the Hold Toe Kick, the Hold Low Kick, and the Hold Shin Kick follow-ups all immediately revert back to the Right/Left Hand Hold if there have not already been two previous / follow-ups, and this too is noteworthy.

    Updated.

    5. The f,f+P+K(hit)P Pass Guard Knuckle needs a "Guard with G" note, similar to the notes for the attacking follow-ups to Akira's Pull-in Throw.

    Updated.

    ________

    6. If you go into the PS2 VF4 Command Training to "practice" Vanessa's (back turned, DS) Turn Straight, and input the command or instead of , the game won't recognize this as a successful completion of the move. If the advice block is open, it will say something to the effect that you are inputting the command too slow. This doesn't happen with the (back turned, MTS) Turn Straight -- in that case inputting or works fine. This leads me to the conclusion that (back turned, DS) (or ) is a different (and undocumented) move than (back turned, DS) .

    Give me frame data and I'll add it in. I'm not convinced it's different just because the PS2 Command Training didn't recognise it in this case. We don't know enough about the algorithm command training uses to determine successfully completed moves. I tested this out more than I'd have liked to, and I'm convinced it's the same (looks like a duck, sounds like a duck) as the d+P variant but I won't be adding it in the back turned section for the same reason why I don't add the numerous other ways of performing the same move with an alternative command when Back Turned.

    ________


    7. The b,f+K Parrying High Kick is also a Sabaki vs. KN attacks.

    Updated. Also updated sabaki chart.

    8. The b,df+P+K Cut-in recovers low.

    Updated.

    9. The D+K Sit Down Low Kick should have a note indicating it can be done from a standing position using the db command. A similar note should be appended to the [MTS] Low Kick, and the [MTS] Low Kick entry should then be deleted.

    Updated.

    10. Daily VF4 shows the Grd for her PPK One Two Low as -15, not -14; and the Hit for her [MTS] d+KP Stopping Low Combo as -1, not +1.

    If the PPK was -15 grd, then Vanessa should be able to minor counter it with her (DS) f+K Cut-in Knee which executes in 15 frames. I tried testing that, and found that she couldn't. It's definitely -14 because Vanessa can minor counter with (MTS) f+P or f+P+K which both execute in 14 frames.

    I'll update the (MTS) Stopping Low as -1 though. Typo on my part.

    ________


    I just want to clarify that this doesn't mean holding G as you would with a normal guard; instead, to "escape" the attack and avoid damage, you have to tap G at the moment of being struck.

    Actually, you tap G the moment you're hitting the ground. Time it like an instant recovery. Note already updated.

    11. Aoi's YY stance does not reverse/Inashi either the (back turned, DS)P+K Face Crush Elbow or the (back turned, MTS)P+K Face Crush Elbow, both of which are normally HE reversible. Another way to look at this is to say the only HE attack that can be reversed by Aoi's YY stance is Vanessa's f+P+K Lightning Elbow.

    Added notes to say "Unreversible by Aoi's Ying-Yang stance."

    Further, Aoi's YY stance Inashis the (mid) K Step Hook Kick as an MK "reversal," and the (desc) K Step Heel Kick as an SK "reversal," even though neither attack can be reversed by other standard reversals.

    Added notes to say "MK(SK) reversible by Aoi's Ying-Yang stance."

    ________


    12. The following attacks should have their hit levels updated from H to H*:
    b,f+KP Parrying Combination;
    P+KP Heavy Hook Combo;
    [MTS]P+KP Heavy Hook Knuckle;
    [MTS] f,f+K+G Neck Slicer;
    [MTS] K+G Guard Crush Tornado.


    Updated.

    13. The f,f+P+K Lightning Lancer Takedown can be G-canceled. In fact, it can be canceled by pressing K or P.

    Say what? /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

    14. ETP in his/her Vanessa FAQ made mention of the fact that the (left/right hand hold) K Hold High/Toe Kicks and d+K Hold Shin/Low Kicks can be guarded by normal means (G or d+G respectively). Since a successful guard leads to an escape from the Hand Hold, it would be worthwhile to include this in a note. G (or d+G) can be held, unlike the G "escape" from the f,f+P+K (hit) P Pass Guard Knuckle.

    Already updated escape notes.

    15. I had earlier mentioned that the Command List doesn't say how to escape the b+P+K Prison Arm Lock or the db+P+K Prison Arm Lock, but I never mentioned how either. I believe it should be noted that the P+G command is used to escape them.

    Already noted.

    *phew*
     
  14. Madin

    Madin Well-Known Member

    Vanessa's Replacement Throw (/versus/images/commands/db.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif) does 30 points of damage if she throws the opponent into a wall (Vanessa' back to the wall. I think this should be noted on her moves list.
     
  15. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    Added the wall version of the Replacement Throw. Thanks Madin.
     

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