Vanessa's weakness?

Does she have any? I mean damn she's got the best mid kick, highly damaging throws, sabaki counters, hit stun moves, damaging juggles, etc. She's got a bit of everything! Her combo strings are kinda confusing as well. HELP!

 

She doesn't a very good low game for one and she only has 2 really good horizontal attacks DS /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, it is a great mid horizontal roundhouse kick. The standing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is good move as well but it is a high attack and can be ducked under easily. All her other horizontals aren't really all that great.

 

She has a lot of great tools. No buts about it.

I'd say one of her weaknesses is her damage. She is VERY safe character, but her damage is a little on the mediocre side. She CAN get big damage, but it's really only going to be off of crumples.

This kinda makes /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif(DS) & /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif(OS) two of her most dangerous moves. Both of which net at least 70 pts of damage on the entire cast with the added bonus of OM traps/wake-up games.

Also most of her damage relies on counter-hits. Though when combined with her other tools(damaging throws & sabakis) it's not so hard to get those counter-hits she needs.

Her low game is definitely weak, her circular game is terrible in Offensive stance. Defensive stance she has a number of ways to deal with steppers. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif & /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif , /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif keep her covered in that regard, but thats ALL in Defensive stance.

 

it can be a bitch for a vane to get her offense going if you know where to step ...


fuzzy works wonders to

 

Here's a personal gripe - ducking attacks wreck OS flowcharts.

Let me elaborate - imagine you *know* that your opponent will try to interrupt you with a ducking attack. I'm not going to get into your opponent being able also to interrupt you with a high attack, let's stick to OS mids vs. your opponent's lows for the time being. Here are your opponent's options:

a) Low punch: tiger knee works. Practice ETEG if you guess wrong though.

b) True Low: Tiger Knee works every other time. Death Scythe is supposed to be special high but sometimes it too just whiffs. It won't CH some lows eg. Shun's low kick, akira's + , sarah's sweep, Lion's and even "normal" lows sometimes don't get CH if they are done from a distance. Slower mids will lose to low punch if you guess wrong.

c) Ducking mid: against mids that have tech-croush properties OS high attacks won't work and your slow mids will often lose to them. I know i go ballistic whenever i play akira: , , + , + , kuzuchi attacks and slow input are magic. And of course playing Aoi from OS is an exercise in futility. Slower mids will lose if you guess wrong.

IMHO OS vanessa lacks (reasonably) fast mid attacks that grant advantage on hit. There is and WR but unfortunately they have very short range. Leaving 20+ frames attacks aside (OM attacks included) you're left with 2 moves: + and +

Concerning + , here's what the move looks on paper: 17 frames punch, -4 on block, +1 on hit, +6 on CH. If you try to play a defensive game, based on poking and fuzzy guard plan on using this move a lot because that's all you got. Unfortunately i find p+k totally bland and mediocre: It is a slow mid punch, susceptible to many defensive techniques. Its followups often whiff inexplicably, even though they are supposed to be natural combos. And of course +1 is not much of a frame advantage afterall.

Concerning + , once again the move looks good on paper but has a fatal flaw when it comes to beating lows: sooner or later it is bound to jump over every true low in the game. Sure it kills low punches (special lows) but other than that i've had it jump over every kind of low attack imaginable. Hell i've had it jump over some mid attacks too (Aoi's & akira's body check). And of course the knee itself is hella unsafe.

Where am i getting to? OS have awesome highs. Unfortunately highs lose to lows. Mid attacks beat lows. OS mid attacks make you lose frame advantage even if you guess right. OS has a weakness.

 

I would disagree on your point that OS is lacking fast mids. I would say that is more a problem of DS.

Both stances have good mid attacks. Only OS has a 14-frame mid attack(/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif.)

Honestly, Ducking only hurt OS if you actually USE her strings a considerable bit, AND the opponent knows the exact moment to /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif. You can end her strings high or low, and if you're paying attention you'll know who is and isn't ducking. You can use that knowledge to your advantage anyway. If you know you're opponent is gonna duck, low throw them. If you know they're gonna /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif then you can use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif. If you compare Vanessa options to say... Aoi's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif then yeah, it's going to look like you're lacking a good mid. Really ALL you need in the way of FAST mids is /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif. If you're just looking for something to interrupt with then it can't get any better anyway.


Ducking and beating step are definitely her most prominent issues in OS.

 

My 2 cents:

Her only weakness in DS really is her punishment, which is superweak. If you learn to buffer ws+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif from standing in the right places (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif *neutral* /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif ) then her lack of an elbow becomes less of an issue, even if it's still there.


In OS she has very few actual weaknesses IMO. Her damage is actually quite good IMO, usually netting 65+ dmg from CH launchers that are just -6 on block, as well as a complete punishment game. I really don't see how you can complain about lack of mids, she has four (FOUR!) high damage moves at 16f, all of them fuzziable. As mentioned already, if you want a fast mid, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is as good as you'll get.

I don't see Aoi as a major problem for OS either, even though I find DS preferable. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif will give good damage against Aois trying to reverse too much.

Instead of trying to use jumping attacks to beat lows (since as you've mentioned, the knee is highly inconsistent), try blocking them.

 

Chefboy you played against me recently on XBL (it's been ages since i stumbled upon Jeneric), i think you can attest i use OS , + + a lot. In fact everybody's who's played agaist me has seen me repeatedly do OS p,k > OS f+p,pkg > and then DS low punch/elbow rush/cut-in knee a bazillion times. I love that string, it leaves you at +1 on block and it's so fast opponents don't seem to have the reflexes to duck the second string. Nowadays i even open rounds with it, forcing AssasinCP on XBL to call my backhand-abusing vanessa broken

The thing is that OS elbow-backhand leaves you at DS. And, before you beat me to it, , + + , a move that will beat all those magic lows described before, also ends up in DS. Yes i'm aware of those two moves but if you end up in DS, you can't continue doing OS flowcharts, can you now?

Also, having little incentive to remain in OS if you want to retain your frame advantage qualifies as being a weakness for OS, no? (It also makes me wonder why it's called "offensive stance" sometimes ). Anyway, I think the inclusion of VF5R vanessa's new , was not a coincidence, imho it's designed to keep vane in OS.

 

Ugh how do you punish her stupid elbow sabaki attack?

 

Her new /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is nice. I don't think the benefit of it is in staying in OS though. I think the main reason it exists it to provide her with a 14 frame mid punisher that knocks down on hit.


To your point about the string taking you into DS I would say "Why finish the string?" You've been using the full string a lot because it's a good string. I find myself relying on solid flowcharts myself. I've recently begun just ending my strings. You don't have to finish it at all. Just use it to interrupt, dash up and throw, or you it to interrupt and do another move entirely, or backdash and use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif! Your focus on frame advantage is limiting your game.

Most people don't know your frame data. I've been teaching myself lately to play against the opponents knowledge lately. One sting I do this constantly with now is /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif(DS). Like everything she has it's completely safe, it's relatively fast (16-17 frames), it's half-circular, and the second /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif causes stumble on counter-hit. That means that I have the options to finish the string and be safe from punishment, and if I delay it and they try to attack I can cause them to stumble and float them with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif if they can't struggle, or I don't have to finish it at all. I can dash up and throw.

I've begun applying this idea to ALL strings for both Vanessa and Jeffry. I know longer allow the advantage/disadvantage to control my actions in a fight. I just make sure I'm aware of the results in a given situation. I've now begun to realize that none of my opponents play to the frame data because none of them know mine my heart. They have to guess when I have the advantage and disadvantage.


*Oh and AssassinCP complains about everyone that beats him. He called my Jeffry broken as well. XD No hate though, I like fighting him, and I always tell him not to focus on the negative but focus on the strength of Wolf, then he does alright.

 

You don't it's safe. It is beaten out my most mid-attacks though.

 

Are you referring to /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif ? Its safe, but you can force true nitaku (mid/throw) after it.. if you dare. But the main thing is that its slow (18 frames) so you can hit her out of it with mid attacks usually if you predict its coming (it ducks highs and sabakis lows as Im sure everyone knows).

You can also evade it.

 

I've come to realize something about DS vanessa's sabakis. I am not sure if this is the right thread but bear with me.

Playing offline with kingo made me regret trying to use them proactively. That is, trying to guess what my opponent will do. And i'm not referring to , i've replaced it with and fuzzy ages ago. +2 from the isn't worth anything against aoi's and kingo's 10f jabbers, and the potential +4 pales in comparison to the blocked -8 and the risk of eating an elbow.

I'm talking about her other (useful) sabakis, and + . Sure, online i can use them with reckless abandon since the first one has a followup that gives +1 on block and the second one pushes back the opponent a bit. Offline however i find them slow and high and a good player like kingo ducks them on reaction. He really does. He even ducks backhands on reaction btw. But anyway, back home i set the AI at the highest difficulty and it was doing the same thing, ducking and punishing.

What i'm trying to say is that those two sabakis can't be freely spammed against seasoned players, the risk is too high. Her mid + sabaki can't be ducked but, on the other hand, trying to use a 27f move proactively feels like suicide.

So I am begining to fear that using her sabakis without taking risks requires (lightning) fast reflexes in order to respond to an opponent's move. Or maybe interrupt him mid string.

Unfortunately i don't have this kind of reflexes. So AFAIC i'm trying to skimp a bit on the sabakis and concerntrate on vane's other, less unsafe, interrupt moves: the + for low punches, the fast that leaves her at only -4 for other lows, and the the 9f for everything else, randomly mixing up the hit-confirmable, non-duckable, non-sabakiable, non-yinyangable in there for good measure.

 

I'm confused, what does RTE have to do with anything? You don't need to throw escape with a sabaki, because you'll beat or clash the throw attempt anyway, without even needing to guess throw directions. As for getting CH by your opponent, if you try to reverse and guess wrong, you'll also get CH . . .

 

Sorry, i might have misunderstood, will the 27 frame move still clash?

 

Unless its a catch throw, throws will never beat an attack during startup or hit frames. Sabaki mostly clash from disadvantage in vf5, because they're generally slow.

 

I stand corrected.

You won't hear me complaining about vane losing her reversals in VF5R

 

Iam new but I have problems stopping extremely moblile characters who have crazy high to low mix ups like Leon and Elene(SP?) For the most part any other losses that I experience, I learn from, but I have no idea what to do better to stop those two characters.

 

Duck.

 

Cool, I thought that I would have to become a master of her reversals. Not sure my reaction time is that quick.