VF4 EVO ver.B!!

A direct quote from Magic Box

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
"- Sega of Japan will release Virtua Fighter 4 Evolution Version B in arcade on December 10. The new version will have overall game balance adjustment, enhancement in the display, mission judgment and quest and so on."

[/ QUOTE ]

*sigh*, when will it evah end? but hey, i hope they sort out akira's damage scale once and for all... /versus/images/icons/wink.gif

 

...and offer this as a free upgrade to arcade outside of Japan as well.

 

A friend of my told me about that, but I believe the real important stuff is at he bottom of the same page (Magic box), where there is a very interresting quote:

In the press conference, Sega COO Tetsu Kayama mentioned that their major game titles will be going multi-platform in the future, such as Virtua Fighter and Sonic, in order to maximize sales. Sega is also considering porting certain platform exclusive titles to other console systems, such as some of the Xbox only titles. The Sega Sports division has incurred deficits of 6.1 billion yen this term, but the team is recovered and continue to develop future sports titles.


Man ! if it isn't actually a real "VF evo on X-box" announcement it kindah looks like it, doesnt it? /versus/images/icons/blush.gif /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif At least it gives us the hope it may be happening. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

 

negative interpretation:
It oculd also mean VF4 C on Xbox... hope not!

 

All the game balancing acts will never end.

Strangely, previous VF games never had this many revisions. Argh.... Think they should rename Evo as VF5. Its too different to call it VF4 still. Evolution sounds a little too mild.

If they must call it VF4 evo, then make it VF4 revolution. Sounds more appropriate. The game is hardly an evolution of anything. Its really different.

WRT, Akira will always be the big damage dealing guy. There r pple who hate it and those who love it. But, how much damage reduction is fair? His moves are really good, for both damage and speed.

 

What do we think should be in EVOb?

Hrmm... How would I balance EVOb?

Akira: I don't think the damage he deals out should change much (maybe down a little). But I don't think he should be able to land combos like shoulder-P-shoulder-DJK. That's a bit obsence.

Pai: I don't think Pai needs much changing either. In fact I would leave her just as is. I hate the mind games that she can play -- but that's her character, lots of setups. For a while I thought her f,d+P+G needed changing -- because I thought throw into throw was lame. But, I don't think like that now -- I veiw it as a multi throw, and more oftern than not Llan goes for f,d+P+K+G. If I'm on the ball I'll escape it. Change her charge kick off the over low blue fist to some sort of linear dodgable attack.

Lion: If anything I think his float tools should float a bit higher. I mean lion has no big damage moves so even after a 5 hit float he's only done as much damage as an Akira 3 hit float. I would make his b+PP recover a wee bit faster so that he can actuallly use it's vacuum properties in a float. Oh, and totally revamp b,b+P+K.

Goh: Goh... Goh floats terribly. But that's ok. He has two situations where he can get guarranteed floats with b+P+K -- so I think that's fine. I think his throws are fine -- but he needs a bd direction. I don't really see the need for some of his throw because they don't offer anything over some of the others. i.e. why have a b+P+G, and a f,b+P+G when he has f>b+P+G? I can't do anything with either of the non-half circle throws? I also think f,d+P+G should be beefed in damage a wee bit. I would also open up the sabaki window for his low punch sabaki, and his b,f+P+K sabaki (since it's so damn slow). Give him unique low side throws -- making the same as his high side throw was lame.

Jeff: For crying out loud, fix the b+P+G, or take it out of the game. Put back his b,df+P+Kb+P+G hit throw (why remove it? it was cool, and people used it).

Aoi: Make her reversals do more damage -- at the moment they're not worth the risk. Beef up the damage on her 270s and extend the her multi to give her more options. (Note: the b|f,u+P+G end should do 5 more points of damage as well -- moving it up to 40 pts). The b>f+P+G, and f>b+P+G, multi starters should both do 30pts of damage. Make some of her reversals multi -- damn she's an AIkidoka.. she should be able to do that sort of stuff.

Lau: Lau's OK. Still boring to play, but OK.

Kage: Make his *df+P (aka. FC,df+P) float higher. Give him a Low-punch reversal in JM (as soon as I go into JM -- low punch from my opponent). Make his JM sidekcik reversal reverse a bit more than sidekicks (mid kicks and knees as well maybe?)

Wolf: I don't see much need to change him either. He seems pretty good to me.


So, what do you think? How would you balance things?
kbcat

 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
negative interpretation:
It oculd also mean VF4 C on Xbox... hope not!

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why I said it wasn't a true X-box announcement ...
Anyway I really hope they are not talking about Ver.C

 

Re: What do we think should be in EVOb?

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Akira: I don't think the damage he deals out should change much (maybe down a little). But I don't think he should be able to land combos like shoulder-P-shoulder-DJK. That's a bit obsence.

[/ QUOTE ] How can you complain about Akira being too powerful, but at the same time state that Lau (who's just as powerful with a much easier learning curve) needs no changes? At least shoulder-P-shoulder-DJK takes a little skill to execute. It's rocket science compared to D,f PPPPK. This isn't meant as a flame. I'm just sick and tired of people whining about Akira being too strong. Deal with it people!!

P.S.
My new sig should be: Too much pride to whine about Akira /versus/images/icons/grin.gif

 

Re: What do we think should be in EVOb?

....says the akira player. /versus/images/icons/wink.gif


edit: J/K

 

Re: What do we think should be in EVOb?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
At least shoulder-P-shoulder-DJK takes a little skill to execute. It's rocket science compared to D,f PPPPK. This isn't meant as a flame. I'm just sick and tired of people whining about Akira being too strong. Deal with it people!!


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not really complaining about Akira. I'm just saying that if I were to be balancing things out I would change Akira a bit. This is more because I think very few characters can float like Akira. I'm not saying that everyone should float like Akira, but his floats seem much more devesatating than any others. It's probably because his floats have few hits but do more damage than most others do with more hits. I honestly do believe Akira is a more powerful character than Lau (and Jacky). We have several high quality Akiras in TO and his damage potential shines through. Lau doesn't *seem* as damaging as Akira to me because he's almost always doing PPPK variations in his floats. I haven't really compared combo damage between the two (there aren't as many Lau's in TO -- I'm one of the only ones and I only play him once in a blue moon). Maybe Lau does need toning down -- It doesn't seem like it to me though. To me Lau only has floats for damage, although the new *f+P+G throw is nice at 65pts -- but, people are learning to escape f, and df regularly with Lau. It's a shame that his four best throws finish with either f, or df. Akira on the other hand has a host of on the ground big damage tools -- like his guard breaks, SPoD, Inashis, reversals, and *good* setup throws. I just think all things considered that Lau should be king of the floats, not Akira. It's all just my opinion of course. On a side note, I don't think "skill" (read: dexterity) should be a consideration in how damaging a float is, so what if a lau player only has to press PPPd+K for his floats and Akira needs to do more stick work? I don't see how that matters.


cheers,
kbcat

 

Re: What do we think should be in EVOb?

My views on Sarah are:

(Feather Scarecrow) and especially + (Crescent Heel) should be slightly faster.

+ (Serpent Smash Cannon) should float higher.

(Straight Lead) should combo into + (Storm Combination).

 

Re: What do we think should be in EVOb?

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Akira on the other hand has a host of on the ground big damage tools -- like his guard breaks, SPoD, Inashis, reversals, and *good* setup throws.

[/ QUOTE ]You're not mentioning the fact that Akira is an extremely linear character. If the opponent knows how to evade at the right time, Akira's offense becomes very limited. Unlike Lau, Akira has no crescents, meaning no all-purpose attack to punish evades. Even if an Akira player knows the opponent will evade, he still has to guess, and counter with the appropriate attack. As you already know, he's the only character in the game without a PPPK combo, (or a reliable 3-hit string that's practical for use other than in floats). This gives him no combo-string mind games, and essentially makes Akira mostly a "one hit" character. Lau can force the opponent to block all 3 hits of his PPP (which can't be interrupted once the first hit connects or is blocked), then force a 50/50 guessing game with d+k or ub+k. If the opponent is lucky enough to duck the first punch, Lau can always switch to PPb+P and get a counter-hit. If the opponent blocks the b+P, Lau's arsenal of BT moves are good enough to keep the opponent at bay.

Inashi/SPoD/Reversals/Guard Break:

In order for these tools to work, alot of guessing is involved. Reversals/Inashi requires a certain amount of timing (although the high punch inashi's timing is more forgiving) and accurate guessing. Making the wrong choice can get you destroyed, so it's somewhat of a gamble.


Throws:

I'm assuming we're talking about Evo here, so I'll elaborate on that: His SE and ST throws have been toned down drastically. ST -> sgpm -> dblpm is no longer a valid combo against all characters, and SE -> dblpm is history (even though it sucked in the first place). This leaves him with db,f+P+G, df+P+G (which has been weakened) and b,df -> mdblpm. These are all easily broken, and two of them share the same direction. Basically what I'm saying is, Akira doesn't exactly shine in the throwing department anymore.

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I just think all things considered that Lau should be king of the floats, not Akira. It's all just my opinion of course. On a side note, I don't think "skill" (read: dexterity) should be a consideration in how damaging a float is, so what if a lau player only has to press PPPd+K for his floats and Akira needs to do more stick work? I don't see how that matters.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that extreme difficulty in combos should be rewarded appropriately. PPPPK isn't brain surgery.

 

Re: What do we think should be in EVOb?

IMO, How I would like to CHANGE AKIRA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#1. LBF: +-0 on normal hit; take away crumble on MC and give Akira +3~+4. Recovery on block can be moved up to -6~-8.

#2. SDE: -8 at least, maybe -9 on block; MC floats high enough for DLC, no DJK!! Or leave in the crumble but DJK followup has to go!! =P

#3. DFS: -6 on block seems fair.

#4. sglplm-sde: -10 on block.

#5. f+p,b: throw should reach/interrupt the hop back. Canned hop back-DTEG. =P

 

Re: What do we think should be in EVOb?

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You're not mentioning the fact that Akira is an extremely linear character.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good point. I say give Akira a circular attack, or another appropriate anti dodge move (throws notwithsatnding because of ETEG stuff).


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As you already know, he's the only character in the game without a PPPK combo

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Many characters don't have PPPK combos, i.e. Goh, Brad, Lion, Jeff, Wolf. All you need it one 2 hit combo do do combo guessing games. Akira has several 2 hit combos. Also, the DLC has been beefed up with the dodge so that It's actually useful on ground and very tricky -- Llany and I tried to throw someone out of a Back Exposed bodycheck from the dodging DLC and we could not do it if the P+K for the bodycheck was input ASAP. Now the dodging-DLC becomes an very interesting mixup game -- is Akira going low, or mid?


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If the opponent is lucky enough to duck the first punch, Lau can always switch to PPb+P and get a counter-hit

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You mean Pb+P. My experience with Pb+P is that you have to enter the b+P right away. You need have super reflexes to choose between PP and Pb+P based on your opponents reaction to the first P, if my take on the input for Pb+P is correct (i.e. you have to commit to doing it as you press P for the first P since you cannot delay the follow up b+P).


</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Inashi/SPoD/Reversals/Guard Break:
In order for these tools to work, alot of guessing is involved. Reversals/Inashi requires a certain amount of timing (although the high punch inashi's timing is more forgiving) and accurate guessing. Making the wrong choice can get you destroyed, so it's somewhat of a gamble.

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The same could be said about almost anything in the game (i.e. it's a gamble and you can get destroyed if you choose wrong). The point here is Akira has all of these tools and Lau does not (Lau's ST is not that great, between Akira's SE and ST in usefulness) . Akira's Break Guards are wonderful tools that an Akira can switch to if he has an opponent that is concentrating on defense.


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ST -> sgpm -> dblpm is no longer a valid combo against all characters, and SE -> dblpm is history (even though it sucked in the first place).

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I did not know that about the ST-sgpm-dbpm combo. It's a shame that it's gone -- I never had any problems with it . So, I say give it back to him. As forthe nerfing of the SE -- well it's been a lousy option since VF3, and I don't know what they can do to fix it.


</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I think that extreme difficulty in combos should be rewarded appropriately. PPPPK isn't brain surgery.

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Do don't think Dexterity should be rewarded (beyong knowing personally that you done something difficult). I believe you should be rewarded for making the right choices in the game -- not for having super fingers. I'm not saying a clumsy person with no deterity what-so-ever should be able to do everything. I'm just saying that I don't think a person with above average dexterity and a low sense of the game's strategies should be rewarded . If you want to do dextrous combos, go ahead -- but you shouldn't punish someone who plays a better mental game because they don't. There is a balance between alll of this, and it has been struck by Sega -- and that is, complex combos usually have fewer hits and bigger damage moves in them, this means that the damage of the moves is not attenuated as much by the float damage modifiers than a simpler combo that has many simple lower damage moves in a combo (i.e. PPPK).

I still think Akira is a more power character then Lau in competent hands.



cheers,
kbcat

 

Re: What do we think should be in EVOb?

I really disagree with that. I think dexterity should be rewarded with certain characters. That is just the way Akira is. He is and always has been a character that has difficult moves to execute. If you don't like this, then there are PLENTY of other characters for you to choose from that are only from thinking and require very little dexterity. The whole point of diversified characters is to give players a choice of characters that best match what they are looking for in a character. Hopefully every player will be able to find a character that suits their style. First of all, even in real martial arts, many forms of martial arts use the body more as a weapon (e.g. Akira), and the power is in the mastery of specific key moves. This aligns well with the dexterity concept. Other martial arts are more about mind-games or take downs. It sounds like you have trouble dealing with good Akira players. Don't try to discredit their endless hard work and countless hours of practice, because other characters played correctly are just as strong if not even stronger. And the reason why Lau doesn't have Inashi/Sabaki/Reversals is because he is the only purely offensive character. That is done on purpose by the developers, again because some players are looking for pure offense. There are plenty of characters other than Akira that have amazing defenses and reversals. Akira also has many disadvantages such as very few low special attacks and no sweep whatsoever.

The biggest complain I have with your comments is with regards to dexterity if you believe that ALL characters should be purely mind-choice based. If so, then all moves should be reduced to the simplest imaginable commands, and SPoD should be simply something like P+K, P, P. This really would be REALLY STUPID, and defeat the purpose of Akira. Video games have always rewarded dexterity to a certain extent. Removing this aspect from multiplayer games is pretty stupid. I don't think anyone would be good at Quake3 without good reflexes and aim.

The other complaint is that you believe Akira is too strong, which is not true. Akira rarely wins high-level tournaments in Japan. Meanwhile, if there are any strong Lau players participating, they will usually make it to the finals. AM2 aims for overall balance, and every character has unfair advantages and unfair disadvantages that generally balance out.

 

Re: What do we think should be in EVOb?

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Akira rarely wins high-level tournaments in Japan.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, since we're talking about Evo, and Ohsu Akira recently winning the National Championships, this argument is moot right now.

 

Re: What do we think should be in EVOb?

<font color="yellow"> LBF: </font color> IMO, taking away the crumble on MC would make this move almost useless. It essentially makes it a crappier version of your basic low punch. It already takes forever to execute, so I think there should still be some sort of payoff after a successfull MC. -8 on block? that's crazy!! /versus/images/icons/grin.gif -6 sounds more reasonable.

<font color="yellow"> SDE: </font color> If the recovery is increased to -8 or -9, then the DJK/DLC followups should remain as is. Just like the LBF, high risk should = high reward IMO.

<font color="yellow"> DFS: </font color> Don't mess with DFS!! /versus/images/icons/grin.gif It can already be spotted a mile away. Why weaken this move any further?

<font color="yellow"> Sgpm -> SDE: </font color> -10 on block sounds reasonable on paper. However, due to the strict timing needed for the canned SDE to come out, I don't think it's fair to make this series into a throw-counterable one. If Sega decides to make this move throw-counterable, then sgpm by itself should still be around -3 ~ -6 on block, and should still continue to push opponents out of throw range.

<font color="yellow"> f,b+P -> backdash:</font color> This new move should have the same properties as Sarah's backflip from Flamingo stance. During the animation, Akira should definitely be vulnerable to a throw, but safe from almost everything else.

 

Re: What do we think should be in EVOb?

You're missing my point. DRE said Dexterity should be rewarded with extra, bigger, damage. I disagree -- I never said that all moves should be simple commands. However, I did say that the reward for dexterity should be the sense of accomplishment that one gets from doing something difficult not from extra damage. I have never said -- make Akira easier to use. I have never said that Akira's in TO crush me, or that they give me a hard time. I have a hard time with certain players, but never with certain characters -- there is a big difference. Johnson gives me a hard time -- Akira doesn't.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
The biggest complain I have with your comments is with regards to dexterity if you believe that ALL characters should be purely mind-choice based. If so, then all moves should be reduced to the simplest imaginable commands, and SPoD should be simply something like P+K, P, P. This really would be REALLY STUPID, and defeat the purpose of Akira.

[/ QUOTE ]
I have never said this. Nor will I ever -- I believe there is a place for characters will complicated motions and CD based stuff. But, I will reiterate my point, I don't believe that these characters should be more powerful, or do more damage, based soley on the fact that their moves are harder to do. The added reward from doing difficult moves should be that you've done a difficult move, or combo. I believe this because some people want complicated characters, some don't, and in the ring they should have equal footing. Beyond that, I don't like the implication that I'm stupid. You need to read more carefully in the future.

As for my opinions on Akira: I don't think he should be a float based character since he has so many other tools. Lau, who only has floats should be *the* float based character in the game. It's my opinion I'm entiled to it.


kbcat

 

Re: What do we think should be in EVOb?

DRE, I've thought about what you said on the way home and how I would change Akira. I agree with you, I don't think Akira is overpowered and should be "detuned". I've never really thought that, and I'm sorry my first post wasn't more well thought out. This how I would change Akira,

Move him from a float centric character to a more rounded character by:
-- Changing his floats. I still don't think he should be able to do should-P-shoulder-DJK (this is akin to Jeff doing Knee-P-Knee-elbow upper).
-- to compensate for the change in his float beef up his reversals (as with Aoi I don't think reversals are worth the reward, especially high reversals)
-- give him his ST-sgpm-dbpm, and his SE-dbpm. Almost every character has a follow to their setup throw (if they have one) and I think Akira's SE should still have a follow-up. Otherwise there is no point to it, except in very limited situations.
-- give him that circular attack, or an anti-dodge move of some sort. Even Goh has a fully cirular move -- Akira should too.
-- I agree with DRE on the LBF, it should keep it's MC KD/crumple properties. It's no worse than Lion's low poke.
-- Make the DLC useful in floats again. Nobody uses it anymore because he has much better options -- give the bodycheck slightly more damage in floats, and make it work in certain situations that an observant player can make use of (i.e. some open stance only combos).

What do you think of that?

cheers,
kbcat

 

Re: What do we think should be in EVOb?

I forgot to mention Goh, but Brad, Lion, Jeff and Wolf all have quick, easy PPP strings that can be used effectively in mind games. Akira does not. These characters (for the most part) can also mix up levels of attack much better than Akira can.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I say give Akira a circular attack, or another appropriate anti dodge move

[/ QUOTE ] IMO, giving Akira a crescent attack would make him too powerful. He already has a very strong nikatu game. And yes, shrm -> P -> shrm -> DJK is ridiculous.

Reversals: Lau has no reversals because he's 99% offense. Even his "defensive" moves have combo potential (u+P/u+K, b+P+K, f+P+K). Akira's reversals are fine the way they are. I especially like the fact that they can now be techrolled in Evo. This opens up the possibility for more Okizime, which I like. Reversals shouldn't do that much damage IMO. Ok, maybe the kickflip reversal should do massive damage....that one's sweeeeet!!! /versus/images/icons/cool.gif.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I still think Akira is a more power character then Lau in competent hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a top level Lau has a much better chance of winning than a top level Akira due to the learning curve/dexterity issue. The fact that Osu Akira won that last tournament proves to me how good of a player he really is. I'd still have respect for Hakuson Lau if he won, but I wouldn't be as impressed. That's just my opinion. Oh well....time to learn Goh!!