VF4 Starting Guide for People with TK experience

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by Hyun, Dec 21, 2001.

  1. Hyun

    Hyun Well-Known Member

    is here

    http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/arcade/file/virtua_fighter_4_tekken.txt

    Let's face it. Where do we find the largest group of potential VF players? Those Sega fanboy nutjobs whose unresolved childhood trauma compels them into sexually fantasize about blue hedgehog or some Japanese middle aged man? No sir, the biggest potential pool of new players are the Tekken players, many of whom actually played VF2 before. This fact is obvious if you can read Tbzone board, where quite a few people confess to be Tekken players who started playing VF4. And I have witnessed myself some Tekken players picking up VF. And you would have to be blind to not realize that Sega wanted to attract Tekken players with VF4.

    So this FAQ was written so that you can have something like the following conversation in front of the VF4 machine:

    You: Have you played Tekken?
    The Newbie: Yeah (I frankly doubt that there is a chance he would say no unless he is five year old or something.)
    Case #1 (If you are hopelessly devoted for success of VF4) Here is a copy of the FAQ.
    Case #2 (If you are not that) Go to gamefaqs.com and get the VF4 FAQ to help Tekken players. It will also tell you where to get movelist and stuff.

    Movelist is of course vital. But looking back at my attempt to learn Tekken back then, you really need some other form of info to get you started in a new game beside a full movelist. And this FAQ is not really intended for those wanabe Tekken players who played a few games of Tekken on their playstation, but the kind of people serious about competition.

    I know this FAQ is very lacking in many aspects, but I also had to consider the cons of making this FAQ too long. It's not much but it's a start. Comments and complaints are welcome.
     
  2. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Hey Hyun, this is really good work and essential. Like yourself, I believe VF4's key pool of potential players are good Tekken players. I'm in an Internet cafe right now so I've only skimmed it through, but when I get back I'll take a closer look and get back to you with my comments.
     
  3. Bronze Parrot

    Bronze Parrot Well-Known Member

    Re: Virtua Fighter X Tekken

    > No sir, the biggest potential pool of new players are the
    > Tekken players, many of whom actually played VF2 before.

    Bingo! Years ago, after I quit VF3, I played Tekken 3 instead, and specialised in Julia for a maniacal reason. And as of today, I've played VF4 just five times. Once more than last week. 8b
     
  4. Robyrt

    Robyrt Well-Known Member

    Re: Virtua Fighter X Tekken

    *thoughts, as he's reading the FAQ*

    1. Great idea... there's definitely a demand for this.
    2. Perhaps you should put in the new triple throw escapes (just mash as many escape commands as you can in 10 frames).
    3. Stance is actually rather critical for Sarah players, less so for Jackys (since during floats, kickflips only connect in open stance and punt kicks only connect in closed stance).
    4. For Sarah, you can actually just do flamingo starter -> u+K for what's nearly a canned flipkick. Another uncommon float starter is u+K+G (hopping roundhouse).
    5. For Lau float enders, all you really need is PPPd+K and FC,df+PPPd+K.
    6. Yin-yang stance for Aoi is rather important... notably, using it after PPPd+K[G] creates a vicious guessing game. Most of her damage comes from throws (usually poke-throw, since she's got so many poke options).
     
  5. Hyun

    Hyun Well-Known Member

    Okay here is a quick thought about the next ver

    1. Fix some more formatting and typos
    2. Mention about Rich's FAQ and other stuff on VFDC.
    3. More info about reversals, parries and Sabaki

    As far as character specific issues I am still debating. Again, have to weigh the cons of making the FAQ too long. But general stuffs like what have been suggsted already in this thread may fit.
     
  6. ghostdog

    ghostdog Well-Known Member

    Re: Okay here is a quick thought about the next ver

    As far as character specific issues I am still debating.

    Yeah, I think you should provide more info on general issues. As I understand, it's a "FAQ" for Tekken fans who are interested in VF, sort of an introduction. It should cover general "stuffs" like reversals, parries, etc. like you've already mentioned, stance (open and closed), movement (dashing, CDing, etc.), option select, frame stats, etc. I think you should leave the specifics to the character FAQs which are bound to come out later.

    Just my two cents...
     
  7. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    OK, finally had the chance to sit down and read it through.

    Some comments:

    - This is nitpicky, but is it wise to start off the meat of the doc with the low punch? It is an essential move to understand to be good at VF4, true, but the placement and length of the low punch section makes it seem like it's a critical part of the game. I dunno, kinda makes VF4 look bad, unnecessarily.

    - Kinda nitpicky again, but after "You know this starts dragon storm (b+LP,RP,LP) string, and you can delay the rest of the string. But what if you don't want the rest of the string and immediately want to get into some other move involving RP?" you should consider adding something definitive like "You can't, you'll get the second punch of the dragon storm." It seems obvious to us, but might be a subtle point for the mushy minded. And mention how the ability to cancel strings in VF with G really brings a whole different dimension of creativity that "custom strings" in Tekken can't.

    - Maybe the anti-low punch section could be generalized into a section about how frame stats (i.e. advantage/disadvantage, execution, recovery, etc.) are important.

    - Perhaps mention that VF has far fewer guaranteed strings than Tekken, especially strings with more than three hits (that doesn't involve PPP).

    - Juggles in Tekken are situational as well...the size of the opponent (I'm mainly thinking of the ogres, kuma, jack, etc.), counter or no counter, etc. will affect what combos are possible.

    - Hmm, I think the KD and stagger section, without explaining KDs comprehensively, may be too specific to the point of being confusing. For example, you can only low throw someone in stomach kuzure down (SKD). And it's not always easy to pounce on an SKD (not sure about HKD). I think you only need to mention that there is a VF version of the double down, known as kuzure down, and that it cannot be struggled out of.

    - Mention that throws have become the most quickest way of countering. I.e. if a move isn't throw counterable, it probably isn't attack counterable.

    - Mention that you can input multiple throw escapes in a given window...we don't know what it is yet, but it's probably 10-20 frames.

    - For the dodging example, use the sidekick instead of the elbow. The elbow can be dodged both sides.

    - "For VAST majority of situations you don't actually have to worry about this. And in fact most VF players don't bother paying attenion to this issue." I think you need to mention that the best players pay attention to stance...it IS very important, and perhaps even more so in VF4 than 3.

    - "In VF3 dodges could be canceled by crouch dash and this allowed what we call "Korean step." You can still cancel a dodge with a crouch dash in VF4.

    - "The right way to think about this is that dodge should be timed precisely LIKE REVERSAL." The timing is definitely not that tight.

    - I'm not sure about this, but in Tekken, you can also throw an opponent out of a dodge right?

    - For okizeme, I think you need to emphasize that the ground game, while improved for the attacker in VF4 compared to VF3, is still not nearly as powerful as in Tekken. It's easy to dodge rising attacks in Tekken. Not so in VF4 due to stance and circular rising attacks. Also, there are many subtle things that the defender can do to improve his odds while rising from a QR/TR. Again, the theme is that the ground game in VF4 isn't as critical as in Tekken.

    - There is a certain type of stun/stagger with the wall, but yeah, there's no sticking or tech recovering a la T4.


    Overall, I think this is great work and definitely a step in the right direction. However, I think you should be careful not to turn the document into a VF4 systems document...the emphasis should always be about comparing and contrasting the system in T4 and VF4.

    I know of at least one person writing a systems document (and I'm pretty confident it'll be a good one), and so that should be the source that all budding VF players study to fully understand the system.

    For a Tekken to VF guide, I don't think it's necessary to go into so much detail (the option select defense, for example), and that it's probably more important to outline concepts, explain them in Tekken terminology, and to then introduce those concepts in VF terminology. Really the most important thing is to get Tekken players acquainted with VF ideas and language. What you wrote about the difference between flow charts and custom strings is exemplary.

    As for the character thing, you may just want to have one section about which characters are the most "Tekken-like" and thus what characters Tekken players are likely to feel most comfortable with. E.g. Bryan/Bruce players may like Vanessa. Paul players may like Jacky. Hwoarang, Lei Fei? Etc.
     
  8. x0r

    x0r Member

    Like your faq hyun, btw what is your nick on tknzai forums?

    About vf, are their damage classes? In tekken tag, some characters simply took too much damage to be top tier.
     
  9. Robyrt

    Robyrt Well-Known Member

    While there are no damage classes in VF, the lighter characters float higher (meaning you can do bigger combos on them). It works, it's logical, but I've never met an Aoi player who likes it. ;-)
     
  10. Bronze Parrot

    Bronze Parrot Well-Known Member

    IMO, keep the main contents of the FAQ as common and general, and write the chara-specific, deeper stuph in an appendix or separate chapter at the end of the FAQ.
     
  11. Hyun

    Hyun Well-Known Member

    - This is nitpicky, but is it wise to start off the meat of the doc with the low punch? It is an essential move to understand to be good at VF4, true, but the placement and length of the low punch section makes it seem like it's a critical part of the game. I dunno, kinda makes VF4 look bad, unnecessarily.

    This is a touchy subject yes. In Korea for example, many Tekken players consider/considered low punch and low kick cheap. They even consider use of low kick to finish round cheap. Many of these people found Tekken 4 and VF4 both cheap slugfest compared to TTT. The US Tekken players don't find low punch and low kick cheap per se but many found Tekken 4's poke game distasteful. Yet effectiveness of low punch is one of the first things that distinnguishes VF4 from both VF3 and Tekken 4. This a touchy subject but an idea that comes to me is to mention something about VF4's backdash/back CD immediately after. Part of the reason poke is so important in Tekken 4 is because backdash has been toned down greatly in Tekken 4 so the players are forced to fight toe-to-toe (Really that was VF3's intention too.) In Vf4 backdashers have more room and that may appeal to TTT players who find Tekken's 4 change unappealing


    - Maybe the anti-low punch section could be generalized into a section about how frame stats (i.e. advantage/disadvantage, execution, recovery, etc.) are important.

    But frame stats are very important in Tekken too! Did you know you can connect WGF every time after you block one of' Law's flips? Or you can connect death fist after blocking Lee's blazing kick? Any good Tekken player must understand frame advantage just like in VF

    - "For VAST majority of situations you don't actually have to worry about this. And in fact most VF players don't bother paying attenion to this issue." I think you need to mention that the best players pay attention to stance...it IS very important, and perhaps even more so in VF4 than 3.

    But for every situation where stance matters, there seems to be a way to get around stance issues. For example many of Sarah's combos may be stance dependent, but in most situations there are alternate combos that are less stance dependent. I maybe mistaken but let's face it, when was the last time you worried about stance before throwing out DLC or Sarah's d/f+P,K,Kickflip?

    And mention how the ability to cancel strings in VF with G really brings a whole different dimension of creativity that "custom strings" in Tekken can't.

    Does it? I frankly don't think so. In VF2 some Lau players didn't even bother to G cancel after each UpKnP sequence. Frankly in VF G cancel is more important because there are less buttons. For example in Tekken 4 Marduk and Jin can hit Lp,Lp without worrying about canned sequence because they don't have canned LP LP string (They have canned LP RP string) Consider that Lau doesn't have to hit G between b+PP and another b+PP. Even in VF "custom strings" we don't G cancel if there is no string to G cancel. (When was the last time you hit G after low punch, for another example?)Tekken has more buttons so there are much fewer cases where G cancel maybe necessary.

    - I'm not sure about this, but in Tekken, you can also throw an opponent out of a dodge right?

    Maybe you can throw an opponent during a specific part of the dodge, I frankly don't know. But it's clear to me you can evade throw with dodge most of the time unlike VF.



    Also before I believe you mentioned something about that there are more guarranted strings in Tekken? I don't find that to be true at all. It's true that there are more strings in Tekken that are guarranted IF the first hit connects as major counter, and a lot of game play revolve around connecting that first hit as major counter, and going into "custom string" if it doesn't. But VF4 has its shares of such strings too. Sarah's d+P+K,K. Lei's d/f,d/f+P,P and Vanessa's d+K,P,P are very Tekken-esque strings I should say.
     
  12. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    But frame stats are very important in Tekken too! Did you know you can connect WGF every time after you block one of' Law's flips? Or you can connect death fist after blocking Lee's blazing kick? Any good Tekken player must understand frame advantage just like in VF

    Oh yeah, definitely, I thought the frame stat section would be valuable in the sense that Tekken players should be aware that such things are important in VF as well. Remember that one Mastermind Gamer on GameFaqs who asked if "there are" frame advantages in VF4?

    But for every situation where stance matters, there seems to be a way to get around stance issues. For example many of Sarah's combos may be stance dependent, but in most situations there are alternate combos that are less stance dependent. I maybe mistaken but let's face it, when was the last time you worried about stance before throwing out DLC or Sarah's d/f+P,K,Kickflip?

    The importance of stance extends beyond combos...you have to care about stance for positioning after throws and combos and for okizeme. In VF3, I always paid attention to stance while playing Jacky.

    Even in VF "custom strings" we don't G cancel if there is no string to G cancel. (When was the last time you hit G after low punch, for another example?)Tekken has more buttons so there are much fewer cases where G cancel maybe necessary.

    Well, this is probably a matter of personal preference, but I almost always press G after every intended move (move includes string). I agree with the premise that G canceling is more important in VF because there are fewer buttons, but I don't think that's a valid argument against the premise that the system in VF is oh so much more flexible. In Tekken, you still have to think, "Oh, can I use this move after that move...nope I can't because I'll get this move instead," whereas in VF you don't have to think about that at all. Well, except for FC issues.

    Also before I believe you mentioned something about that there are more guarranted strings in Tekken? I don't find that to be true at all. It's true that there are more strings in Tekken that are guarranted IF the first hit connects as major counter, and a lot of game play revolve around connecting that first hit as major counter, and going into "custom string" if it doesn't.

    Few guaranteed strings in Tekken? You gotta be kidding me...in addition to the counter situations that you mentioned, most of the 10 hit strings usually have 3-5 hit segments that are guaranteed if one of them hits.

    But VF4 has its shares of such strings too. Sarah's d+P+K,K. Lei's d/f,d/f+P,P and Vanessa's d+K,P,P are very Tekken-esque strings I should say.

    Well, I did say more than two hits in VF...there are very few unless it's a PPP of some sort. Vanessa's d+K,P,P is truly a Tekken-esque move, and that leapt out at me right away.
     

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