VF5 Fuzzy Guarding

I was wondering if it was still possble to fuzzy in VF5 considering Throws are 12f now and elbows are still 14. If we assume throws still have 4 active frames (think it was like that in VF4) it means throws and elbows active frames will overlap making fuzzy imposible. I can't think of a situation were fuzzy would be possible with those numbers in VF5, but maybe I'm missing something here lol.
It seems like +6 is the new +2 for being impossible to duck under a throw but this situation makes it impossible for me to duck under throw and then stand for guarding elbow, since at the 14th frame elbow and throw could be both active.
Does anyone has any info on this ? Black book or something ?

 

Re: Looking @ Akira's Frame Data

I think it's already clear that fuzzy guarding is still in the game isn't it? I specifically said that it's documented you can't duck a throw at -6, so this means that at -5 or less you can fuzzy to avoid both mid and throw.

 

Myke, you forgot that 12 frame throws in VF5 only have 1 actual hit frame.


So based on your charts, it's definitely doable to fuzzy if you just make the ?'s to G's. I don't think the books would make mention of it explicitly if weren't doable? This will be tested though to be sure.

Also, the book says that you can simply crouch, it doesn't talk about crouch dashing. Which may or may not be different compared to the way it works in evo.

 

That makes fuzzy harder though, right? In VF4, you're crouching at the 8th frame (throw begins) until the 10th (or is it 9th?) frame (throw ends), and you press G somewhere in frame (10?), 11, 12, 13, or 14 to guard the elbow. If it is faster than an elbow, like doublepalm, the window is tighter but still possible.

Now that the throw is 12 frames, although it has one hit frame (12th), you only have frame 13 or 14 to press G to guard that elbow. If it is doublepalm perfectly buffered, then it will hit on the 12th frame, same as the throw, and cannot be fuzzy'd.

This means that even at -2, a perfectly buffered throw/byakko mixup will beat any attack (expcept for special evasions of course), and also be unable to be fuzzied.

However, since you can crouch a throw at -6, does this mean you can ECD out of this particular situation? Assuming you lose no less than 4 frames from the evade (and I think it should only be 2 iirc), you should be able to evade on the first frame of the byakko, and safely CD the throw, allowing you to react to the whiff of either appropriately.

If this speculation is correct, then in VF5, ECD can replace the basic use of fuzzy guarding at small disadvantage (obviously it is weak to circular attacks, but you could G cancel the CD before the circular attack hits, as it will probably be slower than elbow class).

 

I wouldn't say easier, the window for pressing G to stand becomes smaller, but you can fuzzy at much larger disadvantages (up to -6) in vf5, right?

 

Myke, at -6 you can't crouch a throw. I think it's not correct to simply assume that crouching takes 6 frames.

Siyko, dblpm is 13 frames, not 12. You're not really going to be able to do it in 13 frames from standing, any slower, than it's the same as elbow.

 

Yeah, no worries Myke.

I have a feeling that crouch dash is the same speed simply down crouch in VF5 (also just guessing here).

But I think what you showed in your frame example tells us that even though -6 constitutes a true nitaku, that doesn't mean -5 is the new -1, nor does it mean -6 is the new -2.

I think that people should not apply fuzzy guard in -5 situations due to the small window of time you need to stand up to block the mid. People should still only try to apply fuzzy guard in similar situations as evo/FT -1~-3. When you get to -4 and -5 situation, things are a bit more complex...

 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Myke, at -6 you can't crouch a throw. I think it's not correct to simply assume that crouching takes 6 frames.</div></div>


Here's what I can gather myself, from the Black Book, page 17:

if you look at the section called "5 frame Disadvantage", it says:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Up to 5 frames of Disadvantage, the defending side can still Crouch to avoid a High Throw. For the Attacking Side, any Attack with up to 15 frames of Execution will beat the oppt's Attack (since the fastest Attacks in the game are 10 frames). the caption, which shows Sarah Crouching Jacky's Throw, says "Even the fastest Throw can be Crouched here".</div></div>

under the "6 frame Disadvantage" area, it says:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From this situation, because Throws cannot be avoided by Crouching, Nitaku becomes useful. (I can't read all the Kanji in the next sentance, but I think the gist of it is that the Defending side should take Defensive measures).</div></div>

although, if you look at the picture and caption, you'll see Sarah again ducking Jacky's Throw by using a Crouching Dash, and it reads:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But, Using Crouching Dash to avoid a Throw is possible. </div></div>

So, we can assume a few things:

We know that Throws take 12 frames. That means @ frame 12, the Throw takes effect.

Being @ -5 means you can't do anything for 5 Frames. The book shows that even @ -5, when the 12th frame comes, by holding /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif you'll be Crouching. It's a difference of 7 frames.

Being @ -6, it says that by holding /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif, you'll still be Standing on frame 12.

Forgetting the Disadvantage, we can conclude that by Holding /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif, you need 7 frames to come to a Crouch. Because by using /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif, you're still standing 6 frames later.

We can also conclude that the difference in speed between Crouch and Crouching Dash is at least one frame, since according to the examples in the book, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif WILL bring you to a Crouch in a Maximum of 6 frames.

Finally, if we look @ the last example "7-9 frame Disadvantage"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Aside from using Attacks like Crouching Status Attacks, a Throw can't be Avoided. The Attacking side should go for Attacks that have Big Return. </div></div>

So, I'd say that, according to the Book, REAL NITAKU, where you MUST Attack or TE to avoid a Throw actually begins at -7 Frames; since at -6, you can use a Crouching Dash to avoid a Throw.

In Addition, unless I've missed something or miscalculated:

using /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif to crouch: 7 Frames Execution
Crouchind Dash /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif//forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif: 6 Frames Execution (since @ -7 you're still standing even w/ CD)

Bryan

 

Thanks a lot, that really helps.
See? Through logic and a bit of math you can come to any conclusion

 

Awesome trail of logic spotlite. This adds much more strength to Myke's assumption about crouch dashing speed.

 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My biggest problem with fuzzy in the past was hitting G too early thinking the throw had ended, but it hadn't. </div></div>

But in vf5 this will still be a problem, huh? Aren't you vulnerable to 0 frame throw by just standing and guarding? Did I miss something?

I just want to point out the value of that crouch dash motion...when the throw whiffs over your head as you cd, your opponent may be BIG open to /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif attacks or throws if you react quickly enough. Fuzzy guard doesn't have to be looked at as strictly "defensive". The same sort of thing applies when you are guarding you opponent's strings...sometimes you have a shot at /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif under a high move in the string to go straight into something fat.

 

Good read.

I ran a search to find out how Fuzzy Guarding is executed and I didn't get much but this thread. I'm just now discovering what it even is.

Could someone refer me to another topic that explains it, or just explain it here? I'd appreciate it.

 

so if you are in a -6 nitaku then you have time to do a 12 frame move and if you're at a -7 you can do a 13 frame move? it seems like there's not enough frames to force between a mid since my fastest mid is 14 frames. Am i miscounting a frame here?

Or

does it mean I can from a -7 situation do a 19 frame move?

 

Erm I didnt understand anything... Lets try to rephrase that, ok?

For some reason I cant find the vfwiki entry of fuzzy guard so I just recap here. This thread is old and is more about discussing how fuzzy actually worked when VF5 was being released. Now we know.

Fuzzy guard = technique to crouch under a throw while still being able to block a mid attack.

Up to -5 disadvantage you can do this by simply pressing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif then releasing stick and keeping guard pressed.

Crouch dash takes you to crouch one frame faster, so doing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif -> neutral+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif works in -6.

(reason for this is that /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif takes you to crouch in 7 frames, crouch dash in 6, and throw speed is 12 frames)

Remember that should you try a reverse nitaku attack, ie. simply attack from disadvantage and opponent tries a throw, in most cases you will get a throw clash that protects the thrower (certain attacks do not clash).

These are the basics of fuzzy guard.

 

Yeah I might've gone into math mode then and didn't make any sense. Spending too much time looking at frame data.

So from a nitaku situation how many frames can your next move be?

Simplified question.

 

True nitaku (cannot be fuzzy guarded) is achieved in -7 or worse situation. The grrls have 10 frame punch, so you can nitaku with 17 frame move. (fastest possible RN attack is Vanessas (DM) df+P, 9 frames, 16 frame attack for her)