VF5 Throw Escape Guide

Here's the next update of the guide. I've added the push/pull properties of high throws so that I can give advise for escaping throws when you're backed up to the ring edge, or you have your opponent backed up the the ring edge. I'm not as confident about my advice with some characters next to the ring edge, so if you have a different opinion please reply here with the reasons why you think I'm an idiot. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

vf5_throw_escape_guide_ver2_0.txt

Eventually I'll wiki this... probably will make it easier to read in the end.

 

thanks for doing this, i'm one of the people that'll dig it the most.

only took a quick glance, but did notice the priority inputs for lei-fei . . . i think /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif should be first priority.

 

I state in the guide that I don't know many of the throw combos. What's a 60+ pt combo with Lei's df,df+P+G throw?

But the guide is based on the highest 2 priority directions you should reverse the most vs. each character because I believe most players can get in the habit of at least banging out 2 escape attempts when they are at a large disadvantage. I almost always use f+P+G,df+P+G when fighting against Lei. I also almost always start with either forward or back, and then go to a secondary direction, but you should use whatever technique your most comfortable with.

 

i see.

fyi,
depending on damage scaling, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif gives you 60+ (and, of course, pushes your opponent away from the center of ring)

also, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif scores 58, is extremely easy to perform and has good options thereafter.

 

Jeffry's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif isn't 73 (45?).

 

oh my god you're so old school.

Good job, brother!

GE

 

I list the d+P+G throw as 73 because the only way to avoid a follow-up butt bomb is to back roll away from Jeffry. If I was a Jeffry player, I would use d+P+G > u+K+G against my opponent until they proved they knew how to avoid the butt bomb.

The goal of this guide is to educate players on how to minimize throw damage. I've noted for a few characters where there is only one[/size] safe way to get up after a specific throw. In all those cases, I've used the higher damage amount because of the above argument. As the player performing the throw, I'm betting on the big damage potential unless my opponent knows the proper way to get up.

 

But it still can be escaped, so breaking /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif before /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif would be misleading damage-wise.

 

Breaking order for Vanessa in Offensive Stance should be f, df, b

Breaking order for Pai should be b, f, d or df (only 45 damage guaranteed on f, d and df are a bit more arbitrary/situational)

Breaking order on Brad should be df, b, f (the f throw is really nerfed in 5, prioritizing df and b is also what the Black Book suggests).

Breaking order on Lion should be f, b, df



There's more, but generally, I think the breaking orders need to be more based on what you get GUARANTEED from the throws, and from there expanding into what you possibly can add to throws if the opponent doesn't know how to handle the situation.

Other then that, good job.

 

Stopping guaranteed damage is more important than potential damage and this should be reflected on your escape lists.

Lion's best guaranteed damage is on the back direction I think. (is /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif(57) the best guaranteed on forwards?)

 

Nah, he has much better combos then that, although it of course varies with the character. Check his combo thread.

 

Nice some of those are pretty neat.

vs Lion I guess it depends how fat you are as to where you should put /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif in your escapes then

 

Sebo, I just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing. You're refering to the secondary (or third) direction you should be trying to escape vs. Jeffty, right? I think we both agree you should primarily focus on escaping df and f, and after that, following observation of the Jeff player your against, b and d are the most likely throws. IMO d+P+G just edges out b+P+G until the Jeff player confirms his opponent knows how to properly defend against the butt bomb. Maybe I'll add a fourth direction for cases like this...

vs. Jeffry throw escape order df,f,d/b

Is that better?

 

Oops, my bad. For some reason I was thinking you couldn't defend against her throw combo when I put the summary together. Will fix this. Err... need to update the study guide now too... I'll do that later.

At least 50 pts is guaranteed with f direction-- both ff+P+G and D,f+P+G with PQR are 50, but I agree, will change this to b,f,d.
Should I change it to b,f,d/df? Anyone else with an opinion?

Hmm... that makes an interesting pattern now for the study guide.

Heh, that was my initial conclusion, too, but I changed my mind when I researched the guide. Can't argue with the Black Book. Before I wrote the guide I thought of Brad as a Jacky clone (when escaping his throws) I guess that first impression was correct. Will change this too.

OK, but I disagree. Unless my opponent proves that they have the timing to perfect quick rise or they know the 1 in 4 ways to avoid a ground attack, I will use those throws which have a higher damage potential.

One of my primary motivations for putting the guide together was to give advice on minimizing throw damage. I'm updating the guide to note damages that are modified by the 1 in 4 ways of getting up. (Look for % signs)

Thanks for your suggestions. =)

I'll finish editing the guide later this afternoon...

 

I need to think about this some more... guaranteed vs. potential damage... I promise to make an update to the guide this afternoon, but it looks like it will be evolving for a while.

edit:
After thinking about it for a while, the arguements here have convinced me. I've changed the guide and added 2 new notations in the damage column.
% indicates you can avoid a ground attack if you get up in the correct direction and
^ indicates you can PQR or QR to reduce damage

I only had to change 7 of the character's throw escape orders... but I think they now all agree in princible with the changes asked for above.

 

Well this is the issue:

If someone reads the guide then they'll know to roll backward. If they know how to defeat the damage, why should they break /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif (3rd) and avoid 45 damage when they eat 55 from /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif?

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif would make the most sense.
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I like this list, but one problem I've just realized: It doesn't take in account ring positioning.

For example: you're attacking DS Vanessa, her back the the edge, you do something really unsafe and she punished with a throw.

Vanessa can go for:

270/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif for 73 or 180/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif for 65; both of which have priority over all of her other breaks, or the she could do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif (if range permits).

If you broke /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif (unless you can escape all, lol), you'll probably be rung out by the other three possible breaks.

The concept of priority breaks seems to die as Vanessa has a powerful mix up as well as the opponent may ease off the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif breaks while her back is to the edge.

Maybe ring positioning should factor in some how? I'd sooner try to break Eileen's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif than any of her /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif tbh.

 

Awesome work, thanks /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

If you stand at the very, very edge of the ring and want to ring out by throw with Vanessa, always do neutral /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif

Why?

Because even if they break it they will walk past you and ring themselves out /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Ring out by throw seldom works against experienced opponents though.

 

I state in the guide that I'm not taking wall/ring out affects as an issue for right now. I want to iron out theoretical center of the ring situations like we are in this thread.

I know Kage and Wolf can for the most part ring you out from a ring center. Forget that for now... maybe in ver 2.0 of the guide. Just thinking about it boggles my mind... you then have to take into account what happens to the character who successfully performed a throw escape too, ugh.