[VFDC CHOICE] Any Vanessa Expert working on a Dojo Guide?

Discussion in 'Vanessa' started by Zero-chan, Apr 19, 2002.

  1. Zero-chan

    Zero-chan Well-Known Member

    Re: Any Vanessa Expert working on a Dojo Guide?

    I believe one is in the works from nycat and alantan at the moment. In the meantime, you're welcome to enjoy open dicussion with other Vane fans here. (^_^)
     
  2. nycat

    nycat Well-Known Member

    Re: Any Vanessa Expert working on a Dojo Guide?

    *gulp* I just finished working on a Shun FAQ addition with Prop-shun. Alan Tan is the sifu. He and Myke are working on a dojo for Vanessa. wifey loves her so much, she shouts <font color=red>NO!</font color=red> whenever I attempt to select Van for vs, play on PS2! There is a <font color=white>Vanessa FAQ </font color=white> posted about two weeks ago on gamefaqs.com by <font color=yellow>Dash-X</font color=yellow>. He has weird lexicon but nice English names for moves. example: Canyon Dive is called: Hip Toss Throw etc. I think <font color=blue>Dash</font color=blue> just registered here this week, so he will be my candidate to work with Myke and Alan Tan. Alan has an amazing ability to grasp subtle combat strats and explain them in layman terms. Sifu Tan is also a proven, in the arcade, champion of VF. I'm the <font color=black>king of scrubs</font color=black> in NYC. I didn't write anything in any of the FAQs I edited. I gathered emails from accomplished players and put it together in a crude but readable fashion for everyone's enjoyment. Now <font color=orange>VFDC</font color=orange> does that for the VF community. The Vanessa thread, here at VFDC is the most often read thread in the universe of VF4. <font color=white>charr</font color=white> wrote an awesome FAQ for Akira posted at gamefaqs and gave props to all here at VFDC for the many insights they provided. )(hint)( ,,, /bow Pic pointed me in the direction of an arcade stick for PS2 so I'm getting it after work today and will be working in training mode all weekend w/ Van, Shun and Lion.
     
  3. alantan

    alantan Well-Known Member

    Re: Any Vanessa Expert working on a Dojo Guide?

    haha,

    it is quite funny to read your post sometimes, nycat. Anyway how come people think I am doing a FAQ on Vanessa. Maybe I really should do one but it will be mainly for Ver B.

    Why not I do one right now.

    Vanessa Ver B guide
    Okay Go into MT stance ASAP

    When you have initiative try
    1) p+k,p,k this move is 50-50 when blocked
    2) kkpp intelligently, ie please mixed it up with things like k, throw OR k,delay,kpp OR k,delay,kp,delay,p
    3) d+k,p,p,pounce
    4) f+p+k
    5) p,throw The p is to throw off the throw escapes of the opponent, very impt as Vanessa has only very few MT throws

    When you do not have initiative
    1) dodge attack
    2) g,u/d+p this is harder to throw than one but cannot dodge a lot of stuff, basically only things like punches which occurs quite often
    3) d+p, dodges high and sabaki low, not bad

    When no one has initiative
    1) p,throw
    2) f+p+k
    3) block
    4) f+p,p,k of course you have to delay intelligently and mix throws inside

    And always throw when you think that opponent is going to block... err... isn't that obvious...
    Finish!!
     
  4. nycat

    nycat Well-Known Member

    Re:Vanessa Expert Dojo Guide

    thx Alan. Vanessa players want to know: Do you have any favorite "set-ups" for low throws? You used to favor Defensive stance. no? Why the change of heart (i.e.) Go into MT stance as quick as possible? I have trouble w/ up dodge.. I seem to jump/hop? BTW- w/ Lion when I try to do hop kick or even u+K , the spinning mid kick I sometimes dodge? ugh. Grr, I hat to make this a confessional. (^^)
     
  5. Tetra

    Tetra Well-Known Member

    Re:Vanessa Expert Dojo Guide

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    You used to favor Defensive stance. no?

    <hr></blockquote>

    alan always play MT stance in Ver B. He only started using defensive stance when the Ver C came out....

    Alan, your super short faq explains everything abt your MT stance in ver B /versus/images/icons/smile.gif
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I dont think im an expert, but heres a guide anyway.

    Thought I would pitch in a make-shift guide while people are waiting for an 'expert' to come up with one. Its a work in progress, which is why i'm posting it in a thread rather than pretending its a real Faq. Hope it helps, and I hope some of you can help it. I hope to get more revision and editing done on it soon to make it more useful.

    ETP's Vanessa Guide
    ~~aka - The Blind Leading the Blind~~
    ============================================

    For a full move list and legends go here:
    http://virtuaproject.com/virtuacode?pageID=movelist&xsl=virtuadot-4c&xml=vf4c-vanessa
    No offence meant to this site, but I just prefer the look of that move list better. Naturally you can use the move list and frame data on this site as well.

    ============================================
    Move Analysis - The Bread and Mayonnaise
    ===========================================

    DS Moves:

    P and d+P and df+P
    --------------------------------

    Her normal P executes at 13 frames, one frame slower than the average jab speed of 12. It is however a small concern considering how useful the move is. It is the beginning of a two option string (P,P,P,K, or P,P,K), can set up a throw, and it always puts you at an advantage. If it hits on a counter hit, you get +8 frames.. tis very sweet.

    Her low punch sets up mid hitting while standing moves, or her great throws. It comes out at 12 frames, and leaves you at a frame advantage unless blocked.

    Her df+P comes out incredibly fast (10 frames) and will net you +2 frames on a hit or counter hit. When blocked neither person has the advantage (+0 frames). Best used when in close to interrupt opponents manoeuvres, as its execution time is very hard to beat. For regular counter hitting the standing P nets more reward, but isn't as safe. Lastly, be careful not to do the canned follow-up much, or at all, as it leaves you at a disadvantage.

    f+P
    -----------------------------

    Vanessa's elbow (back knuckle actually, but needs to be reversed like an elbow, and similarly hits mid) is not as good as some other characters (lau's for instance is godlike) but has its own special purpose. The string its attached to (f+P,K,K) is a great aggressive tool. It hits mhm, does great damage (60) can be delayed during each of the hits to throw off peoples timing, works great in some relatively high floats, and can be substituted with either f+P,df+K (f+P+G if it counters) or cancelled with G (to clear the buffer) so you can input something original.

    d+K,P,P
    ------------------------------------------
    Begins with a nice standing low hit and follows with a delayable combo that catches quit a lot of people. Like the combo above it works wonders when mixed with the delays, G buffer clearing, and in combos (most notably the d+K as a tack on hit when someone is low to the ground, then perhaps even a db+K to add insult to injury).

    FC, n+P
    ---------------------------------------------------
    Vanes best move from the crouch position, comes out fast at 13 frames, hits mid to promote your own throw attempts, and gives you a very nice stagger on a counter hit.
    The FC, n+K has better range, but is otherwise not as good.

    G,u+P or G,d+P
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    Move that starts from a guard and sidesteps slightly in execution, as well as hitting mid. Its greatest asset is as a counter hitting tool, as it will net you a stomach crumple with which you can tack on extra damage. You can attempt a back stagger from this as well (more on that below).

    db+P
    -------------------------------------------
    Under utilized in DS is this excellent sabaki move. It automatically deflects low hits (cya low punchers) and delivers a good shot. Mix this in up close against people who like to go low. When it hits as a counter in either stance you can attempt a low throw.

    ---------------------------------------------
    -MT Stance Moves:


    f+P+K
    ----------------------------
    This move is the best MT stance move. Comes out at 14 frames and give Vane her only real float options. Its speed lets you counter hit people with it, and utilize in very close range. However, do not abuse it too much, as its duck able, and gives you -6 frames if blocked (not too bad, but still not something you want to give people while in a stance without defences). Common moves to tack onto this after it connects are f+P,P,K; f+P+K, or df+P,K, and a soccer kick if you can connect it.

    P
    -------------------------------------------
    Not the perfect jab, but it'll do the job well. Has very fast follow up jabs (P,P,P) but is best used by itself for the most part. Tapping G after the punch to clear the buffer is important here, as its easier to accidentally continue this combo when you don't plan on it if your not precise.

    d+P
    -----------------------------------------------
    Same as the db+P in defensive stance, only seems to find its niche here more, due to the aggressive nature of this stance. People are often desperate to low punch their way to freedom from a MT rush, so this stops them cold.

    d+K,P,P or d+K,P,K
    -----------------------------------------------------
    Same as the combo in DS, but this time you can switch up by using the knee finisher against those who try ducking the second hit.

    f+P,P,K
    --------------------------------------------
    Fast elbow hit begins the string, which is all mid hitting. Most notably useful in floats. A useful move in general.


    ===========================================
    Move Analysis 2 - Throws
    ===========================================

    Vanessa needs throws. Don't kid yourself into thinking you can win without them. Even if you don't throw much, you need the threat of the throw to be present. This is because Van has some pretty weak low hitting options, and some pretty brutal mid hits. Even ducking isn't safe against throws, since Vanes crouch throws are also incredibly useful (go catch throws!). Its an important mix up so learn which moves allow you to get a free throw. And also learn your opponent, some freeze up slightly at certain moments (for instance after my opponent gets up and I rush over, he tends to block high, which is naturally a stupid thing to stand there and do out of the blue, but hey, I wont complain.)

    -DS Throws

    d,db,b,ub,u,uf,f+P+G
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Leg breaker has the most damage of all Vanes throws. 70 damage is a lot, and worth the effort of learning the 270 throw commands. However it is not her best throw, as the escape (f+P+G) is one of the easiest to perform, and second most performed on reaction.

    d,df,f,uf,u,ub,b+P+G
    -------------------------------------------------
    Heavens Gate is in my opinion the throw to utilize when you need a throw to connect for great damage. The b+P+G escape is not terribly common and so its fairly safe. Tacking on a soccer kick at the end boosts its final damage to very desirable levels. Oh, and it looks absolutely brutal.

    df,df+P+G
    --------------------------------------
    58 damage, works well from a crouch dash naturally, and a df+P+G escape. The only problem with this throw, is that if people start learning to escape your DS throws with df+P+G then your MT stance throwing becomes less effective as they will carry that on to it. Used in moderation its an excellent mix-up.

    hcf+P+G
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    pretty easy motion, and 60 massive damage. Its some peoples throw of choice, but I'm wary of throws with a f+P+G escape due to my friends insistence on escaping those.

    f,d+P+G
    ----------------------------------------------
    d+P+G is yet another escape motion your enemy will have to guess with if you begin to use this move. Difficult to perform due to its odd command, but well worth it.

    Low throws d+P+K+G, and df+P+K+G
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Great options and very rewarding. Mix these in when you can get your opponent ducking and you will make him very nervous indeed.

    f,f+P+G, f+P+G or b+P+G
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    Vanessa's wall throws require your opponent to be against a wall and are pretty hard to connect on anyone. I include them here only because they are very cool. If you can get one to work in a real match, you kick ass.

    -MT Throws

    MT has very few throws unfortunately.

    df+P+G is your go-to throw, as even if they are expecting it, the df motion isn't the easiest to hit when your getting killed.

    f+P+G is next on the list, followed by the regular P+G.

    Add in low throws of course like you would in DS.

    Last note about throws. Both stances have the db+P+G surprise exchange throw. This switches sides with your opponent but does no damage by itself. It also puts them pretty far, giving you practically no good follow-ups. IT is however a decent tool to switch places near the edge of the ring. For ring out possibilities, or for wall combos (and the wall throws) on stages with walls.

    ============================================
    Move Analysis 3- Secondary, but Useful Moves
    ============================================

    -DS Moves

    df+K
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    hits mid, looks low, can be charged up and recovers pretty quickly. Its a solid poke, as well as a guard breaker. Admittedly I do not use it much. But if you can work this into your game properly it can only make you stronger.

    b,f+K,P
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    d,f+K is a sabaki that goes throw most high and mid attacks with only a few exceptions (mid kicks, and knees). Also b,f+K,P on a counter will also float decently. however, its high hitting and relatively easy to avoid, preventing it from being a staple. Still good to throw out when your opponent is likely to begin the offensive after one of your moves is blocked. Just be careful.

    D+K (crouching)
    -------------------------------------------------------
    Less risky low hit than the d+K+G. Has a fair range and can be crouch dashed to. Not a terrible poke as the low hits aren't really expected from Vane.

    f+K (f+P+G on counter)
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    15 frame mid hitting knee. Good up close to punish any slower moves by the opponent. The timing on the throw is difficult, but doable.

    f,f+K
    -----------------------------------------------------
    Shadow slicer is a great long range move, as a whiff punisher or stagger hit. A useful move to follow a back stagger or a switch throw.

    b,df+P+K
    --------------------------------------------
    This is one hell of a difficult move to get off, and the likelihood of doing it aren't great. But as a low kick and low punch sabaki its quite a fun thing to pull off. Punishing low punchers is very important in this game, as the d+P is so powerful. If you block a low punch, you get 4 frames, but if you use this you get upwards of 37. That's a decent advantage.

    b,b+K+G
    ---------------------------------------------------
    Back dashes to avoid attacks, can be charged to alter its timing and cancelled in two different ways (hold k and press g, or just tap g during the move). When if connects it stomach crumples and when its fully charged it staggers people out of their guard. If you use this move to much though you are asking to lose.

    f,f+P+K, P
    ----------------------------------------
    Tackle catch throw with a punch follow-up. So many people try to guard this thing. Once again, not a move you should let people get used to, but worth it when done sparingly.

    f,f+P,P
    ---------------------------------------------------
    Quick mid hits that travel a decent range. Can be added into floats. A move I use, but not a common move in general. You can decide for yourself if it fits into your style.

    Reversals b+P+K and db+P+K
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    Vane can reverse high and mid kicks and punches . With all reversals in vf4 though, the timing is very difficult, especially against an opponent who knows how to vary his or her attacks. Practice these moves constantly when you can. And learn some of the basic combinations and common moves of your opponents and which level they hit at which will help you do them. Vanes reversals are not essential to her play, but if someone were to utilize them well he would have a huge advantage, especially in the psychological game. This is where I have the most trouble, but over time I will be reversing a lot more.

    -MT Moves

    K,K,P,P or K,K,P,K
    ------------------------------------------------
    Another delay able string that gives you options. Starts with a 16 frame mid hitting move. Stop it early and throw, or begin a new move to add variation.

    df+K
    --------------------------------------------------
    Perhaps worthy enough to be a bread and butter sort of a move. Its fast, mid hitting, has a decent recovery and good range. Overall a great poke. Not that great in close range however.

    P+K,P,K
    ----------------------------------------------------
    Useful combo, decently quick with a fair recovery on the first two moves. The last hit pays off well with a +7 frame advantage if it counters. But gives you -10 if blocked. Its important to add variety however so include it (at least the first two hits) every now and then to avoid being repetitious.


    ===========================================
    Basic Strategy and Flow Charts
    ===========================================

    -If your opponent stands guarding Throw or low hit. A sweep d+K+G is acceptable if you can make it surprise him. d+K is a fair low hit, as it can be followed up with its string.

    -If you opponent ducks, stagger him (df+k works nice, but you have tons of options), low throw, or rip him apart with mid hitting strings. With such an array of mid hits at Vanes disposal you have many options.

    -If the opponent Strikes Back: jab, low punch, elbow sabaki (against low), or evade. If you know what's coming a reversal is very nice, same with the cut in sabaki (DS b,df+P+K). Of course blocking is always an option, until you can find an opening for your own jab or counter.

    After a jab, low punch or df+P(ds) connects: Throw him. With a wide variety of throws you can make it very difficult for anyone to escape. Best if the punches hit as counters but still a solid tactic.
    -Elbow sabaki, df+K, or low throw if you expect a duck. An elbow, or quick mid string are also options.
    -FC+K or a sweep if you think a high retaliation will be done.
    -d+K and perhaps its follow-ups to change the level of the hits if your blocked.
    -Jab or low punch once again to keep the rush going.
    -FC, n+P after the low punch

    After a stagger:
    -Throw if they try to struggle out then block.
    -f,f+K, or f,f+P, f,f+P+K (DS) df+K (MT) for when he is staggered far away from you. Vane has many longer ranged moves, experiment with then to find your favourites.
    -Float Starter. f+P+K(mt), db+K+G(both), floating isn't a great strength, but when you can hit with the f+K+G, do so.

    ============================================
    Floats

    Generally your not going to get too many floats, and those you get aren't going to be amazing. Vanes strengths lie elsewhere.

    If you can get a db+K+G you can try P,P,P,K, or P,P,K, or f,f+P,P for some simple damage. In MT stance just tack on a f+P+K since the distance it makes you is too much for anything good.
    b,f+K,P has only one real follow-up, which is f,f+PP.. I find everything else misses too much.
    Stomach Crumples (i.e.: g,u+P, or bb+K+G) f+K, or f+P,K,K or df+K+G are options from DS. f+P,P,K from MT.
    f+P+K(mt stance) is followed nicely by f+P,P,K or df+P,K
    df+P(ch, mt stance) lets you be more creative.. but its not the easiest hit to connect as a counter. f+P+K, f,f+K,d+K is an example of a follow-up. Although f+P+K,f+P+K and f+P,P,K and bf+P,P,P,K are easy nice fill ins.

    ============================================
    Tips and Set-ups
    ============================================

    Back stagger Trick.

    When a move makes your opponent fall face down, head towards you (like g,u+P counter hit, followed by f+K) and your opponent techrolls from that fall, you can attempt to mid hit them while rolling away to put them into a special stagger.
    The hit I use is df+K. The timing is tricky and requires you dash forward a bit to get it to connect properly. when you do you will notice your opponent clearly stumbling while facing away from you. This stagger makes him go fairly far from you, but with f,f+K or b,f+P+KP (both DS only)or db+K+G you can hit them in the spine for good damage. Its guaranteed as long as your opponent decides to techroll, and it takes off a hunk of life.

    =============================================
    Now, Go Away!!
    =============================================

    This guide is quite basic, and certainly not finished. So you will need to review some other sources for information as well. This site is great for info, just search for posts with the word Vanessa in them and you should be fine. The move lists I linked to are very good, with all the frame data goodness you'll need.

    DO NOT FORGET TO GO THROUGH TRIAL MODE. Its really an amazing feature for learning the game. And tells you a lot of good vane info, so go through it. Look through the effective series and float sections especially.

    Movies of playing are a great source of information, since you can pick up some interesting styles, and ways of using moves you wouldn't have thought of normally. For those, either look in the Media posts, or go to the Media section of virtuafighter.com and check out those links. Feixaqs site is very good.

    Lastly -- This is a work in progress, so, for the love of god, if you see something missing, or wrong, feel free to tell me so I can improve this. I admit this was written rather quickly, but that's just because I wanted a first draft sort of thing out on these boards so I can get others opinions. Its not truly a FAQ yet, but it will be with help and some time.
     
  7. ghostdog

    ghostdog Well-Known Member

    Re: I dont think im an expert, but heres a guide anyway.

    Just a couple of add-ons:

    b,f+K,P has only one real follow-up, which is f,f+PP.. I find everything else misses too much.

    You can followup with P, P, P, K on lightweights.

    Stomach crumple combos:
    From defensive stance:
    -G, u+P-> f+P, K, K:works in closed stance, and only with G, u+P, as far as I know; 76 damage pts

    -G, u+P-> f+P, df+K:works in open stance; 63 damage pts

    -G, d+P-> f+P, df+K:works in open stance; 63 damage pts

    -G, d(or u)+P-> dodge attack(d (or u), P+K+G); 55 damage pts

    From Muay Thai stance:
    -G, d+P-> f+P, P, K: works on heavyweights only as far as I know, both open and closed stance; 64 damage pts

    -G, d+P-> f, f+K, d+K: works in both open and closed stance; 60 damage pts

    -G, d+P-> f+K: works in both open and closed stance; 50 damage pts

    f+P+K(mt stance) is followed nicely by f+P,P,K or df+P,K

    You can also followup with d+K, P, K
     
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: I dont think im an expert, but heres a guide anyway.

    Forgot to add the wrist grab in the secondary moves section (neutral from DS, grabs high and mid punches). Particularily the ability to change the level of the kick (K or d+K) and the ability to followup the P+G with a move like f,f+K when done while holding the opponents right hand.

    Thanks ghostdog for your combo additions, aswell as those on IRC who have offered there suggestions. Should be updating soon, although i cant edit the above anymore /versus/images/icons/frown.gif .. which would have been much easier.
     
  9. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Well-Known Member

    Re: I dont think im an expert, but heres a guide anyway.

    hey, awesome effort and well written. An awesome addition to the boards!
     
  10. alantan

    alantan Well-Known Member

    Re: I dont think im an expert, but heres a guide anyway.

    just a few stuff.

    MT: d+k,p,k the last k is mid only at one stance
    DS: f,f+k is very impt. Definately one of the most impt moves for DS. circular, range, non-throw counterable, knockdown.
    MT: b,f+k,k is also good on the virtue that it is circular
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: I dont think im an expert, but heres a guide anyway.

    i made sure to mention both the d+K,P,K(mt) and the f,f+K(ds) in my post. It should be clear that the d+K,P,K is only in MT stance. As for the f,f+K i agree i did give it too short a write up, as the properties you mention are very important. Thank you for that.

    The b,f+K,K just barely didnt make it into my secondary moves section, but i think your right in that its circular motion, combined with decent range and hit level mix could make it a contender. Not a very common move however, but perhaps worthy of more attention. I'll give it some more testing for sure.

    Thanks for the reply.

    Oh, and one slight addition is that the FC+K or D+K low kick i mention is also executed as db+K.
     
  12. Tetra

    Tetra Well-Known Member

    Re: I dont think im an expert, but heres a guide anyway.

    what Alan meant is close and open stance for d+k,p,k. The last k will miss crouching opponent if you are not in the correct stance. Not sure which though didn't do any research.
     
  13. alantan

    alantan Well-Known Member

    Re: I dont think im an expert, but heres a guide anyway.

    my opinon of good moves for Vanessa Ver C

    DS:
    first tier
    1) b,f+k,p: sabaki a lot of stuff Vanessa with initiative when P is blocked
    2) p+k,p: the last P leaves Vanessa with initiative when blocked. P can be delayed. A chain when p+k is hit and gives you 5 frames advantage.
    3) d/b+p: dodge high sabaki low
    4) f,f+k: mentioned before
    5) d+p:
    6) throws
    7) g,u/d+p
    second tier
    1) d+k,p,p: not as good as ver B but still very good. interesting thing is that the second P recovers much faster in MT.
    2) d/f+k:
    3) d/f+p,p: I think this move is very good but I have not use much yet


    MT
    First tier
    1) f+p+k
    2) f+p,p,k
    3) p,throw
    4) d+p
    5) g,u/d+p
    6) throws

    Second tier
    1) p+k,p
    2) d+k,p,p/k
    3) f,f+p+k,p,p looks pretty good on paper but yet to really test. A left right punch combination makes dodging tough? A true chain on first hit MC and knock down. Can delay a lot, final hit crumble on MC so it is actually very safe.

    and dodging is also very impt for everyone
     
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: I dont think im an expert, but heres a guide anyway.

    Firstly, and addition to make to the flow charting section.

    After a d+P (DS) you have good options. You can of course attempt the throw. Or Hit with a low move (FC+K/db+K/d+K+G). You can d+P again, or quick rise into a standing jab, or a df+P or a db+P (last one useful against an opponents attempted low hit in return).
    Perhaps the best move is the WS+P, which is quick, hits mid, and when it counters gives you a very nice stagger to work with (common followups being f,f+K or f,f+P,P long range attacks works best as they are pushed a fair distance, you can also try to dash in with a throw or low throw, if you notice your opponent is prone to blocking or ducking and blocking after recovering from staggers). If the WS+P is blocked, or hits normally, the sabaki attacks are amazing as a followup. b,f+K,P against high and mid, or db+P against low counters. Naturally if you are adept at reversing you can try your skills out at this moment, but the sabakis are better as they will also punish your opponents throw attempts.

    P or df+P to d+P, to ws+P, to b,f+K,P is one of my favorite strings right now. I add alterations constantly to avoid it being to predictable like adding extra pokes, stopping short for a throw or new string (like f+P,K,K or d+K,P,P aswell as stopping those short and adding delays when needed) or going low for a db+K or d+K+G when they think they are comfortable blocking it all high.

    Alantan: Firstly thanks for your reply.

    The b,f+K,P is becoming quickly a favorite of mine certainly, as its a wonderful way to stop counter attacks.

    I havent tried the P+K,P much, mostly due to the slow and high hitting second punch. But checking out the frame info you listed, especially the part about +2 frame advantage when the second hit is blocked makes it definetely something to try out. Ill post again when i get a chance to. In the meantime i have a question. When do you find yourself executing that move in a match. Right after a P counterhits? or to minor counter big whiffs by the opponent? or as a starter in an of itself, hoping they block the whole thing (or get hit naturally) to give you the advantage to begin a strong rush?

    The rest of your DS list is very strong, i dont use the second punch of the df+P,P string though, as youll be at a frame disadvantage even when it hits, and youll just break even if it counters. But the df+P is solid.

    For the MT second tier of moves you list, i once again havent tried out the P+K,P in battle much, but ill trust your insticts and give it some use in my next matches. And i definetely see why you dont include the full string (P+K,P,K) as -10 frames on a block is brutal. Perhaps thats why i never got into using it, i was probably not stopping it at the second hit and just assuming it wasnt good.

    Once again thank you for your reply and for giving me some moves to test out.
     
  15. alantan

    alantan Well-Known Member

    Re: I dont think im an expert, but heres a guide anyway.

    the DS, d/f+p,p second hit MC will give you stomach crumble in Ver C so it is not soo bad.

    Anyway after the p+k,p (blocked), a 2_5+p will interrupt most stuff your opponent throws at you even d+p . But I cannot do it properly due to my pathetic fingers. Wilson can do it almost perfectly the NEXT moment I told him about it. I just can't seem to do modified moves and buffer them properly.
     
  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: I dont think im an expert, but heres a guide anyway.

    Well, ive been checking just a couple things recently. And one thing from an earlier post especially. Alantan, you said in a previous post "MT: d+k,p,k the last k is mid only at one stance " and im having some trouble deciding exactly what you mean. I went into training mode and the move hit mid consistently against lei fei. I set him to crouch and the last hit woud hit him every time in the face. I checked with both open and closed stances.

    Some people on the boards talk about Vanes crouch throws being catch throws, and thus not escapable, and other say they are escapable, but only from MT stance. Others still say you can escape normally. So i just went through and double checked, for the sake of knowing for sure. Both of Vanes crouch throws, in both MT and DS, can be escaped. Just thought i would add that.

    The K+G guard break move, which is not a move i recommend doing, allows some really great followups when blocked. You can connect with any one of Vanes float starters after an opponent blocks that move (db+K+G in either stance, or f+P+K and df+P in MT stance) and tack on the appropriate ender (usually P,P,P,K or P,P,K in DS or f+P+K or f+P,P,K or df+P,K in MT) for some pretty decent damage.

    I have two questions for the general VF public. Firstly, in training mode i had the cpu set to escape every throw, and it would naturally. But at one point i struck the opponent against a wall and crouch threw him when he reeled forward and the cpu did not escape the move at all. I was curious if that was just a fluke, or if certain stuns or staggers will make certain throws inescapable?

    Next question is this. I set the cpu (lei) to get up with the Mid Kick attack, and then set about trying to reverse it with Vanes mid reversal. No matter what, Vane refused to reverse the rising kick. Is this a property of Vanes reversal/ a property of the kick/ or just an error?
    Might this have something to do with whether it is cresent, straight etc?

    Hopefully someone will have the info one what types of rising mid kicks she can reverse, as i am almost certain i have reversed rising mids before in matches.

    I did use the search function naturally and found one piece of advice "Lau abuser, akira cannot reverse rising kicks for all characters except his own or when the other characters lies in face up feet away/face down head away in which case you can only reverse the mid rising kick. The only character that can reverse all rising kicks is Aoi. "

    So that tells me that i cant reverse them all, but i still need to know which ones i can. If i have to, i will eventually test all the mid rising kicks one at a time.. but i really dont want to do that.


    Another topic of discussion, and an eventual addition into the FAQ, is Throw Interruptable moves. This is a property (in theory) of certain moves that allow you to be thrown while executing them.
    f,f+P,P (thrown during the second hit)
    MT K
    G,u+P or G,d+P
    Those three moves have been suggested in other threads as being interruptable by throws. I have yet to test them. But im putting them here now just in case one of you either knows for sure, or has more moves to add to the list of those i will be testing.

    Well, thats it for this update. I still have alot of stuff to get through, but im always looking for more.
     
  17. Tetra

    Tetra Well-Known Member

    Re: I dont think im an expert, but heres a guide anyway.

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    Some people on the boards talk about Vanes crouch throws being catch throws, and thus not escapable, and other say they are escapable, but only from MT stance. Others still say you can escape normally. So i just went through and double checked, for the sake of knowing for sure. Both of Vanes crouch throws, in both MT and DS, can be escaped. Just thought i would add that.

    <hr></blockquote>
    I think it's VERY similar to wolf's giant swing. Catch throw range, faster than catch throws execution but escapable.

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    Next question is this. I set the cpu (lei) to get up with the Mid Kick attack, and then set about trying to reverse it with Vanes mid reversal. No matter what, Vane refused to reverse the rising kick. Is this a property of Vanes reversal/ a property of the kick/ or just an error?
    Might this have something to do with whether it is cresent, straight etc?

    <hr></blockquote>

    try doing a 270 throw and reverse the mid kick. Basic rule of reversing mid rising kicks. 1) Any mid rising kick that looks like side kick can be reversed. 2) Any mid rising kick that looks weird or are cresent cannot be reversed 3) Generally the reversable ones are the half circular ones eg. side kick looks.

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    Firstly, in training mode i had the cpu set to escape every throw, and it would naturally. But at one point i struck the opponent against a wall and crouch threw him when he reeled forward and the cpu did not escape the move at all. I was curious if that was just a fluke, or if certain stuns or staggers will make certain throws inescapable?

    <hr></blockquote>

    AI bug /versus/images/icons/frown.gif

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    Lau abuser, akira cannot reverse rising kicks for all characters except his own or when the other characters lies in face up feet away/face down head away in which case you can only reverse the mid rising kick. The only character that can reverse all rising kicks is Aoi.

    <hr></blockquote>
    wrong..... She can't reverse the weird rising kicks. Those that flip the whole body eg. kage, lion. Or the jacky/sarah 2 kick flying up in the air. Hope you get what i mean. She is the only one that can reverse rising cresents though.

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>


    Anyway after the p+k,p (blocked), a 2_5+p will interrupt most stuff your opponent throws at you even d+p . But I cannot do it properly due to my pathetic fingers. Wilson can do it almost perfectly the NEXT moment I told him about it. I just can't seem to do modified moves and buffer them properly.

    <hr></blockquote>

    It works very well. I get MC hit 90% of the time for [WS]+P. Other 10% is because i screwed up on timing /versus/images/icons/frown.gif
     
  18. Chan415

    Chan415 Active Member

    Hmm...it would be a nice addition ya know..
     
  19. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    Re: I dont think im an expert, but heres a guide anyway.

    Re: [MT] d+KPK hitting mid

    I'm pretty sure this has been explained already, but what Alan means is that the last kick (knee) will whiff against an opponent in open stance, even if they're crouching and guarding the entire string, due to the positioning. But yes, it still hits mid. Did you test it in training mode with the CPU guarding?

    Re: reversing rising attacks.

    buya explained this already, but I just thought I'd mention that Hyun's FAQ on Rising Attacks is well worth you reading. It explains the properties for rising attacks very well. The type of rising attack, and thus what you can and cannot reverse, depends primarily on their knockdown position.

    Re: escaping low catch throws

    In VF4, not all catch throws are the same in that they cannot be escaped. Again, as buya mentioned, Wolf's GS is a catch throw, but can be escaped. The same applies to Vanessa's low throws. I think it was made a catch throw because of the great range it has. If it were a normal low throw (i.e. exe 8f) then it'd be, dare I say, too good!

    Re: thow interruptable moves

    I'm certain the G,u or d+P can be thrown during execution.


    I'll add some other stuff to the thread later.
     
  20. Vanessasman

    Vanessasman Member

    Re: I dont think im an expert, but heres a guide anyway.

    (im sorry but i dont have alot of time to read the whole thread so forgive if u stated something that im about ask)


    For u venessa experts wat do u use most to start of a juggle

    normally is use

    d/b GK (both)
    or
    d/f P (MT) [ i dont know if thats right but is shuld be close)
    I have a very hard time trying to juggle with Vanessa other characters seem to have better juggle staters.
     

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