what is Aoi good without reversal?!!!!

I have been watching those media of Aoi fighter vs other
seem like they do none of the reversal moves
If no reversal moves are using why play her?
I beleive other characters are much better than in term of striking moves

I have been practicing Aoi for week, my goal would be do at least 2 reversal every game

/versus/images/icons/blush.gif

 

aoi's fun for other reasons, like guard cancelling. Some people play her just for the challenge, others like the throws, and a lot of players play someone because of their character's looks/style.

Anyway, it IS too bad reversals aren't stronger... because they are quite risky compared to the reward they give you.

 

Aikido is about reversing not attacking

may they should increase the damage from those reversal moves to encourage people into using it, offset the risk that you willing to put out

or maybe add some multi-throw type after the reverve

 

There are many videos of aoi players reversing or using inashi's in high level play. Those maneuvers are not aoi's single most important strength in the way she plays. Afterall, this is only a game and not real life, it can only reflect real life as well as the player that plays the game. If you can consistently reverse people in actual play, then I congratulate you. Being able to do that means you can read people's play very well. /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

 

I agree that for the sake of her style (and to make her a more interesting character) it'd be neat if she had more damaging reversals and special reversal followups. That would be a much interesting character design than a weak punch-elbow-throw-crumple-float style, though I guess guard cancelling a lot is its own style.

 

Aoi with stronger reversals would make her too much like a DOA character. /versus/images/icons/cool.gif She can already reverse every type of attack except for jumping ones and also already has guaranteed followups on 2 of her non-circular reversals (middle kick and right arm I think) where she can do the ground throw and get the down attack. Against high/mid circular, she gets the free + hit throw, etc.

At her flowchart core in Version C, Aoi was all about forced choices after she gets a small frame advantage (or even disadvantage). + which is only 13 frames, 2 handed, and caused a crumple on MC coupled with her good throw game caused a nitaku guessing game and this is where the difficulty in playing Aoi is in my mind. If you are unable to consistently guess well in this situation, you can't win with her.

 

Update on your comment about people not reversing. If you frequently download videos off the net. I suggest you take a look at the most recent am.sega video featuring The guerrilla against Sasaki Mk. II. guerrilla is one of the best aoi players in japan and he attempts to use aoi's reversals quite a bit, with success. Here is the link btw.
http://www.vfevo.com/movie/vfevo/mk2_06.wmv
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re: the free ground throw reversals, I was thinking of evo, my bad. Does she really get the ground chop after the ground throw for free? I thought you could roll one way and get out. Or is it really hard?

As a GENERAL rule reversals are pretty shitty damage. Aoi being better at them than most characters helps but the reward is low relative to the risk - Your reversal loses to two hit levels, any throw, and there's the timing issue - a frame early and your knee reversal turns into a free MC knee combo for the opponent :/

If I could fix VF reversals or maybe aoi's in particular, I'd make the timing lax like it used to be, and would leave the damage alone. 20-25 points kinda sucks, and only two of those reversals net the additional 20. Or is it three? I think they fixed it so that the overhead slap elbow reversal no longer gets a ground throw, because the opponent is knocked a bit too far back... but the backhand vs high punches and the sidekick reversal does.

Anyway.

Yes, in version C double stop is absurdly good. It got raped for evo, bummer.

 

Reversals are supposed to be high risk, they just aren't high enough reward. She's supposed to be the best reverser, so how come Van and Wolf have her beat? /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif

 

Hm.. I thought reversal damage sometimes varied based on the damage a successful attack would have caused...

To wit:

Vanessa does her + at full charge, and is reversed by Aoi... 49 damage

If she does it without charging at all, Aoi's reversal does 42 damage... A simple side kick from Vanessa is reversed for 41 damage... same reversal animation, however.

True, 8 points of damage extra is piddling, but it's an interesting phenomenon.

 

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Hm.. I thought reversal damage sometimes varied based on the damage a successful attack would have caused...

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The damage is calculated like that (base reversal damage + half of the reversed move's damage).

 

<font color="ff3366">She's supposed to be the best reverser, so how come Van and Wolf have her beat?</font color>

Even though the damage from Aoi's reversals is less than Wolf's or Vanessa's, Vanessa and Wolf can only reverse certain attacks (Vanessa reverses high/mid punches and high/mid kicks, while Wolf reverses high(?)/mid kicks and low punches). Aoi can reverse practically any single limbed attack in the game, and can inashi crescent/circular attacks. And in EVO she can reverse certain double palm attacks. The fact that she can reverse so many attacks makes her reversal game better than Wolf's or Vanessa's.

 

I have focused on Aoi reverving techniques and found out something important I think

Aoi can reverve 2nd move from any 3-4 combo
(the thing that Pai cannot do, related the theory of block stun from first move and recovered move from 2nd one and all that)

Since then I rarely reverve the 1st move, unless that reverve would finish them. What i do is block the first move, remove block and change to reverve mode, as the result I am able to reverve them more often

 

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(the thing that Pai cannot do, related the theory of block stun from first move and recovered move from 2nd one and all that)

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Sure she can. Same applies for her inashis as well. To test this for yourself, have Lion do df+PP against you in training mode - you'll find that you can block the first df+P and reverse/inashi the second one easily. In fact, you can get hit by the first one and still reverse/inashi the second one.

cheers,

 

Can pai reverse the second punch of lau's PPP?

Just wondering, I'd assumed everyone followed the same reversal rules. I never tested it. But one of the things they went out of their way to fix in evo version B is the forced guard for PPP-type combos.

 

I don't think so. I could be wrong because when I tested it I had to use both controllers by myself.

 

In Ver.C, the second punch of several characters' PPP combos can't be reversed once the first P is blocked . I'm pretty sure all 3 punches have to be blocked. This goes for: Pai, Lau, Jacky, Sarah, Kage(open stance), Lion, Shun (b,f+PPP), Wolf (PP, f+P), and Vanessa (PPP and b,f+PPP from MT stance). I've tested these myself, and I'm glad it's been changed in Evo.

 

In my opinion, since Aoi is basically an Aikido fighter, she IS the BEST reversal character in the game, and Tenchi 'in You stance (or yy stance) is practically nothing short of an instantaneous parry. Ironically, though, her reversals are weaker compared to characters like Vanessa and Akira.

I'm surprised that none of you guys mention about Akira, since he is the only challenge to Aoi in reversing game. At first glance, some might think that Akira's reversals are better than Aoi because they dealt more damage and Akira can also reverse nearly every kind of attack (in exception to double-limbed attacks).

However, keep in mind that Akira CANNOT reverse/parry crescent/circular attacks like Aoi. AND he cannot reverse punches and kicks with his back turned - something that only Aoi can do in VF or any other fighting games I've known. And Akira's ++ deflect stance is - IMO - horrible compared to Aoi's TiY stance because, although you can add crumple to your opponent by adding after a successful deflection, Akira's stance can only deflect (if I remember correctly) high , low , and mid . So you see, trying to deflect with Akira is a VERY risky business because he can only deflect these wildly varying 3 kinds of attacks. That's very small compared to Aoi. And, keep in mind that Akira DEFLECTS, Aoi PARRIES, the window of opportunity is smaller compared to a successful parry. But still, I think Akira's sabaki has its uses (I would love to hear from you Akira players!)

Speaking of parry, Pai is equal to Aoi. However, parrying with Pai is treated like reversing - you must execute correctly the direction of the attack you want to parry.

I'm proud to say that I'm a regular user of Aoi's reversals. So far, the characters that I found easiest to reverse are Jacky, Jeffry, Vanessa, Lei Fei, Lau, and probably Sarah, too. The hardest ones are Lion, Shun, and ultimately Pai, because she has so many scary moves that cannot be reversed (like the jumping scissor kicks and her cartwheels) and her full-circular kicks are the fastest and nastiest in the game, making it very difficult to reverse them.

So basically, I think it is up to the player's judgement to when use the reversals. The easiest character to reverse is Jacky, because not only most of his attacks are mid-area, he also doesn't have (as far as I know) any of those double-limbed or bodyblow shit (which I heard Aoi can also reverses in EVO). Against characters that are hard to read, like Shun and Wolf (yes, Wolf!) switch to Tenchi 'in You instead.

In the end, although many players dismiss her reversals (which is a shame) because of the risk, I still think the reversals are Aoi's key elements (in addition to her Tenchi 'in You stance) to be a true powerhouse fighter in the game. Remember that the beauty of using Aoi (and in Aikido arts) lies in reversing your opponents. Reversals are Aoi's bread-and-butter, there's nothing more satisfying than seeing a successful Edasaki (hi/mid ), Urakotegaeshi (hi/mid , with back turned) and Ouzu (somersault reversal).

Here's a tip: many Aoi players probably already know this, but try to make your opponent attack in the area that you want to reverse. For an example, in my analysis, in the heat of a battle, whenever I have my Aoi interrupt an opponent's attacks by using a simple low kick, they almost always counter with a mid-area attack, particularly elbows and side kick, this makes me very easy to reverse them because I can already expect the incoming attack. But still, this strategy has its danger against opponents who can low-throw.