Who here thinks EVO Akira is too powerful?

/versus/images/graemlins/mad.gif way to powerful

 

I would definitely have to agree. He's always been strong, but he seems more accessible now.

 

Akira is too strong!! Everytime I get touched by him, he juggles me and lands a 15 hit combo that takes 490148053 pts off my life !! I don't even get to play another round cause he kills me THREE times over!! I have stopped playing this game because Akira is in it. I'm sorry to say, this game is just lame, cause Akira is stronger than God himself. Sometime his fist even starts to GLOW and the glowing blinds my eyes so I can't look at the screen!! How fair is that? He is CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP!!!! To all the akira players: You all just have NO SKILLS what so ever, akira combos are SOOO easy to do, especially that KNEE!! Playing as akira require ZERO knowledge of the game!! All you have to do is pick him and you AUTOMATICALLY win!!! You don't even need to do all the complex input like throw escape like the other characters!! I HATE you Akira!!!

/versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

You will all fall victim to my glowing, uncounterable fist of doom!! After doing it once, I instantly win all three rounds....and get all the chicks.

And yes, Yoho -> P -> knee -> m-dblpm requires no skill whatsoever. /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /versus/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

I don't think Evo Akira is too strong (of course /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif).

I think Akira has gotten pretty popular, and how to use Akira is relatively straightforward, so a lot of strong tactics and combos have come to the fore-front. But, I think other characters that are easier to use and have the benefit of all the kinds of attacks that Akira doesn't have are just as, if not more powerful. I've always thought that if you think VF4 Akira is too strong, you probably don't have a really good Lau, Sarah, Kage, or Pai in your neck of the woods.

In addition, the last two tournaments that I've played in (TiT and a casual thing here) had very experienced Akira loyalists (myself and IMF) taking losses to what I consider to be "casual" Shun players (not casual VF players, but people who use Shun as a side character).

But, an Akira player just won the Japanese national, so...

I'll agree that counter hit Yoho combos took too mauch damage in Evo version A, but that's been toned down now. Most of those big combos take about 80-90 points now, and still rely on stance, counter hits, weight, and slightly difficult input; while combos like Sarah's 33K- K,P- 6P, K still drain about half even on heavier characters like Akira.

If you're fighting Akira, remember that you can avoid EVERY attack he has aside from P+K+G by dodging to his back side. If you're able to couple this with a DTE by doing u or d, f+P+G, d/f+P+G (hold G), you just cut Akira's game in half. Basically, you only have to worry about middle attacks and throws. The key is to dodge: Akira has no spin attacks, and almost all of his attacks are just one hit.

I'm sure most people would disagree, but I'm just gonna throw it out there that I don't think he's any more powerful than the other easy-to-use, abuse-move-centric characters. But Akira is not weak at all, and I would agree that certain other characters are weaker than those top-to-mid-tier types, like Vanessa, Goh, Brad.

Spotlite

 

If only Goh's shoulder was as usable as Akira's same move.

 

While I don't think Akira is overpowered, I do think dealing with good Akiras is much tougher than your post suggests. Dodge throw escape is not a simple solution and there are many easy things that Akira can do to deal with it.

One safe measure is to slightly delay the SDE by a tap or two. It'll cause the opponent, if he dodges too early, to get the unsuccessful dodge. mC hit, float, combo. Also, it's usually too fast to try and interrupt a dashing/SDEing Akira...especially since SDEs beat punches mid-distance.

Or, if the Akira is confident, delay a yoho/shoulder ram for major damage. (Hell, SPOD is no slouch move).

For me, it seems like the key to dealing with really good Akiras is a willingness to play the high risk, high reward game. It's really difficult to out-poke and out-safe good Akiras, because Akira's damage potential is just too high.


Finally, I do agree that the characters that appear "strong" (Akira, Jacky, Kage, etc.) make good showings at tourneys and such because so many people play those characters. Japanese players are generally very particular about character loyalty; many of them have played the popular characters since VF1/2/3.

Characters like Goh, Brad, Vanessa, etc. have the disadvantage of being newer characters (poor Vanessa, completely changed in Evo) and thus, fewer dedicated players and fewer "strong" representatives.

 

Hey Spotlite? What should an Akira player do against someone who keeps dodging towards his backside and escaping his throws? Akira's not completely screwed then is he?

Sorry to turn you guys' anti-akira thread into a learning session /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif But I'm curious.

Nevermind. Ice posted just seconds before I did.

 

SPOD or delay attacks.

Spotlite swallows...dont bother asking him shit

 

Bah, Spotlite - he's too strong! /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Well, I've always thought Akira was a bit too strong. while he doesn't have crescents, he's got the best half-crescent in the game IMHO, and a nice set of reversals, and also the two "queer" throw directions ( and ) He's well-rounded when you think of it that way. Don't see why he can have such an offense, and a great defense as well.

The Byakko and Yoho just seem to take priority over everything, and he's got the damn crumble on MC elbow. I just think too many Akira's play too similarly. Wait for them to even start moving, elbow, crumble, unload. And also, one of the best "slighly delayed attack" games in the VF world, since his damage potential is so high. I'd say Jeffrey is in there as well w/ that damn knee.

I'm glad he one the tournament though, as I put my bets on him in the little contest they had (VF.Net members got to pick what character would win). Time to see what I got!

L8r

 

Ah GP

The hate/dislike still burns ^^

 

For starters I play as goh, and a well timed sabaki will kill akira in no time.
but that damn pai under the right player is too much...don't get me wrong im just an avg player, and i don't have extreme skill...except with shun, but man...when pai gets started you might as well not even block.

 

Yes, Akira is one of the better characters and definitely has the best offensive arsenal in the game but he's not unbeatable. In theory, he has to guess less than other characters (I'd say 3/4 ratio in general) so you need patience, good defense, to punish him correctly and knowledge of the game to beat him. In Evo B, he is overall weaker than before with many of his common moves taking damage reductions and making his throw game guarantee less damage. ++ doesn't guarantee a double palm anymore. At most, he gets a guessing game and he doesn't throw you far enough to use it as a ring out tactic. The standard ++ combo can be struggled out of and a good number of the characters have this direction for a throw which may also cause stumble and/or moving the opponent behind you. Also, many of his moves/combos require much more control manipulation than others. In fact, my wrists start to hurt if I play him consistently for 4 hours plus.

 

It's funny, we have non Akira players saying he's strong/too strong, Akira players saying he isn't /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif. As usual.

GP: while I know it probably seems like the DblPm has great priority (and it does) it can be stopped by so many moves. I can't count how many times I've been hit out of it by moves like Shun's normal K, b+K+G, chouwan, b+P, handstand kicks etc. Just last night Joey stopped by DblPm with just P from Kage. I think in VF4, proirity is based more on timing than damage; much more so than in VF3. Go to any of the higher level game centers in Quest mode and try to DblPm someone from your tech roll, and you'll get stopped almost every time by any number of moves. And don't forget, elbow class counterable.

Akira hasn't even gotten a new throw since VF3tb (unless you count PIT-P+K/RBC), and like Shou said, his d/b and d throw options aren't that great. 0 and 40 points guaranteed (while many people don't struggle out of ST- singlepalm, I don't know why, since Andy can do it amost every time now), and to get the 40 points after the ST, you have to do 5 taps of the lever and 3 buttons (why not just push P+G? because Akira's P+G is only 35 points, Shun's P+G is 50 points). That sums up playing Akira in a nutshell: much more work for comparable damage.

Here's what I mean: akira's best moves are probalbly
333P
2_46P (or 3346P)
466P+K
2_6+P+K (or 336P+K)
33P
K+G (G 1 frame)
43P+G, 46P+G, 16P+G
P+K+G, 43P+G, 4/6+P
3K+G, 6P, 466P+K
etc.

Kage's best moves are:
6P
4P+G, 3P+G, 42P+G, 6P+G
PP4P
2K+G
2P+K, K
3P
44K+G
Jumonji P+K, K+G, 2K
K+G, P
etc

So it takes more work and time for Akira to get his moves out, and like Shou pointed out, most of his combos are hard/command intensive. This doesn't make him weak, but it helps to balance his damage potential (which isn't really leaps and bounds above everyone else to me, aside from deep bodychecks). While a move like the SPOD is a great move, I think I only had about a 15% success rate with it yesterday, and while that's just me, if I use another character, input is almost never an issue, even with stuff like Goh's hit throws, I have a much higher success rate.

Jeff said:

"It's really difficult to out-poke and out-safe good Akiras, because Akira's damage potential is just too high."

I don't know what you mean, I just spent about 6 hours yesterday getting out-poked and out-safed by our local Kage/Lau player Joey, and I have to say that I think this is wrong. Those characters have SO MANY safe, effective, good range pokes that can be strung together, my Akira can be overwhelmed quickly. Like Kage's PP4P, 9K+G, 4K etc, if the opponent guards those moves, it really doesn't matter, does it? Just do another one, or some other quick move that's safe. Same for Lau's 3KP, 6PP, KK, 4P+K, 2KP, etc. While those moves can be ducked/dodged, it's a kind of on-paper arguement, and in reality good Lau/Kage players use those kinds of moves together so well that almost everyone freezes up on the guard button, allowing throws/more attacks after you've successfully defended (like guessing games after Kage's K+G, P or elbow).

Again, I don't think this makes Akira weaker, but I think you can poke and be safe with certain other characters much more easily than Akira. If you guard Akira's SDE, you basically have a 50/50 shot at doing good damage (Akira's fastest attacks P/2P can be MC'd by even slow moves like Knees, and if he doesn't attack, a throw is guaranteed since he can't crouch in time. Against DTE you can use the same delay tactics mentioned before).


I also wanted to clarify what I meant about the weaker characters, in reference to what Jeff said.

Vanessa: I think Vanessa is really strong, but to learn her best combos and set-ups in both styles takes a lot of study, and her best moves seem a little on the slow side relative to most characters. She just seems to take more dedication than most characters.

Brad: Like Vanessa, Brad's best combos take practice and are stance based, and a lot of his best combo starters tend to be a little slow. Like Goh, Brad also has a pretty short move list, so putting his game together seems more tactical than some other characters that can overwhelm with speed/variety/power. For example, compare Jeffry's Knee to any of Brad's knees, I'll take the elbow recovery of Jeff's for the trade off in easy usefulness. Brad's most powerful attack only does 30 points of damage (45 on counter hit), and he has no charge attack.

Goh: While his throw game is great, and his Knee is really powerful, Goh has got to be the weakest attacker in the game. Only one float move (which is slow), and the flop attack that won't flop on normal hit (unlike Akira, Lau, Brad and Vanessa's floppers), and lack of any fast mid-long range attacks aside from 46K. His hit throws are nice, but 2/3 require a counter hit, and the other one is a slow high (even though it works on guard). While his damage potential is high, he just doesn't have the fast, mid-range, safe canned combos that most characters seem to have now.

Oh, and Mike90210 doesn't even play VF anymore, so fuck him /versus/images/graemlins/cool.gif.


Spotlite

 

hehe, i think i'll never get used to the numeric system ot telling moves /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif.. so...confusing (for me) /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

Sorry Long post

Ok. Imho, the problem with akira concentrated at SDE.
You want to talk about kage/lau/akira comparison? I can offer some mediocre lau impressions. (i am sure ice can come up with kage's part)

At the highest level, i don't believe stick motions/move executions become the issue at winning/losing. You see many video showing akira doing fffp after getting hit by low p. Every poke, elbow situation is mostly controlled by yomi. (i don't think there are that many human can buffer sde on reaction). I am not saying Akira's elbows are as easy to execute as Lau's , but as long as yomi is involved in every step (as it should be in decent high level matches), the technical part of akira's move is less and less of a concern for Akira.

As for the difficulty of the akira combos... i don't think anyone still think modified moves are hard, just-frame single palm and knee are more of body memorization of the timing, after 1000 matches with akira i don't think any decent akira will have trouble with them. (if you do, then obviously you shouldn't pick akira as your main) (heck now missing knee can still give the combo anyway, even if you get a standing K, m-byako still works /versus/images/graemlins/crazy.gif)

So... now letz focus on the dmg/reward factor:
Lau gets a good advantage (+3 or above) situation. Out of the fast pokes he has (letz say less than 17 fr, cuz slower moves are about the same for every character, incredible risk/incredible reward), other than punches he can do ->
Elbow 'Palm'(medium risk, small reward) //with palm you get medium reward but becomes high risk move
(high risk, good reward)
Sidekick(high risk, small reward)
M-Upknife(medium risk, good reward) //this is if you can actually mod a 15 fr move in 1fr.
Downknife(medium risk, medium reward)
M-Roundhouse(high risk, medium reward) //again. modding involved not much error margin allowed.

Conclusion: out of these moves, the only thing that gives good reward is upknife and , but upknife requires counter hit and hits HIGH, no margin for error in close range(can't even waste 1 fr). And hits high only, unless you can pin-pnt yomi your oppt gonna berserk, you are screwed (everything counterable if they duck) if you miss. That is why you don't see Lau doing either of the above at +3 situations. (In the video clips) Sometimes you see but again thatz pin point for dodges.

So what does Lau do mostly out of his fast poke arsenal? punches, elbow. small risk small reward moves. Not becuz he doesn't want to gamble but becuz he doesn't have anything decent to do so. (Intelligently guessing is brave, foolishly slugging out 17fr+ moves is scrubby)

Now compare that to akira's fast pokes:
DE (low risk, medium reward) //-3 on block, +2 on hit, byako combo (~40pt dmg) on counter. compares to Lau's -4 on blck, 0 on hit, +6 on counter.

SDE(medium risk, high reward) //-6 on block, byakko combo (~40dmg on hit), just fr single palm/dbl jump kick on counter (slightly less than 70 dmg)

So what does all these translate to? Imho, -3 on DE means sometimes akira still does Byakko (since he is buffering CD anyway), since it is a 12 fr move it will MC if you try anything cute(lol 15 fr moves (Byakko wins on dmg)...now i think about it 15 fr moves aren't usually considered cute). (40+ dmg prolly on counter hit) Alright, so you say Lau has cheap elbow Palm that does 39 dmg on normal hit!! but Lau's elbow has inferior stats compare to Akira's DE, and so when it is blocked Lau is in worse shape, unless he scrub out the delay palm, which put him in for a world of hurt if he miss (nowaday even scrubs look for elbow back fist type of move), and -1 even if it connect. Overall i would say they are pretty even in this area, though akira's DE is prolly much safer, and thus a bit more desirable.

Now the main prob lies within SDE, a 15(14 technically, but 15 realistically) fr move that is long range, hits mid, combo on hit, nasty dmg on crumble. Worst... /versus/images/graemlins/smirk.gif cough, best of all, it is not Throw counterable (-6). This is why many ppl say akira's dmg potential is higher than everybody else... let me give an example:
Lau hits Akira with a low P, thinking:
'let me elbow him' -> getting almost nuthing on hit.
'Elbow Palm!' -> ok now it is a decent gamble...but a gamble on gaining 39 dmg with chances to lose 70+ hp.
'Throw!'-> puuh.. as you may have noticed alrdy throw is actually considered the last resort now (for poking chara atleast)since the whiff really hurtz, and everyone can atleast dteg with ease.
'umm...delay single palm then'-> first of all it may not work, so at best you stopped after BD and stood there like an idiot, worst you whiff the palm over your oppt's head. If you yomi right, you get 40-60 dmg depending on the stance.

Akira hit Lau with low p...
"DE!" -> ok . fair risk/reward, decent gain but i may put myself in bad shape ( /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif -3) hmm....
"So i guess... SDE!" -> Why DE when u can SDE? /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif even if Lau punches right away, a correctly buffered SDE will counter hit Lau. Means: if lau try to move he lose 70pt hp. So if oppt don't move..a very common sequence is... Lau: "Ok i guarded SDE you b*st*rd! now i know you gonna E-DTEG..let me delay my... <font color="red"> <<HUMMMPH!!!!>> </font> Lau got crumbled by a SDE for 70pt dmg.


I don't want to bitch about evade-bodycheck, byakko, LBF, and even DE. (i bitched long enough alrdy to Shou /versus/images/graemlins/cool.gif) Every character have their own staple good moves. But seriously it is SDE that gives ppl reason to say Akira's risk/reward game is above anyone else.

 

perhaps the people i play against (and myself) haven't reached a high level of play yet....but i rarely see people discussing reversing akira. i play aoi a lot...and she can reverse anything in evo. almost every single one of akira's big damaging combos starters or moves are mid.....so what do i do quite often against the crazy, damage hungry akira players? db+p+k....and they get reversed....a lot.

for awhile they did fall into this pattern and finally learned their lesson, but they still go for it too much sometimes, and i get em. i rarely see the pros in the movies from japan reversing as well, so maybe it is a really risky stupid technique, but against akira at least, i think your chances of reversing are better than against most others.

or maybe i have psychic powers and know every move thats coming next!

i also think its odd that akira's rising attacks are some of the only ones that end up in damage for him when reversed....everyone else just gets pushed back and maybe hit with a move if the dont respond fast enuf. perhaps this is a con they tacked on to akira to try to balance him out? maybe not....

i'd like to hear what you all think about the reversing....

-jimmy

 

I think the better question to ask here is.....

<font color="white"> Who here thinks EVO <insert any character here> is too powerful!!!!? </font>

Maybe we'll make so many posts and argue until this website blows up!!

/versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

ya fuck mike and fuck akira

ok so I need to improve my game a little . . .
btw is the E3 meet still on? Its a month away and I heard nothing yet -_-;;