Who's da best at what?

Been thinking about this lately, so thought it'd be a good topic. These are just my opinions, so please don't get all huffy if you don't agree. Conversely, I'd like to hear other peoples opinions and why.

Best at Reversals: Aoi (duh)

Best range: Jeff

Best high/mid/low balance: Pai (Lion would be a close 2nd, but he doesn't have the mix up that Pai does, IMHO)

Best Upper: Kage (Why? Only requires mC, and isn't throw counterable - nobody else has that. )

Best for scrubs to use: Jacky (I know this might hurt some feelings, but...)

Best thrower: Wolf (4-directions + neutral for normal throws, three for low, and of course, the combos. Also has *THE* highest guaranteed damage combo once the first move is successful, which includes a throw)

Best to float with: Brad - mainly b/c I suck against him, and I get my ass floated all the time.

Best crescents: Lion - High and mid, from a long distance.

Trickiest: Shun (I hate fighting against Shun, even though he's my man)

Best frame advantage in stance: Sarah - no brainer

Best punisher for a botched TR: Lei Fei - if you don't know why, TR when he can do the Sen Shippo into your back, and you'll understand

Best TR-game: Akira. Can whack you when you're getting up, or when he's getting up... doesn't matter.

Best : Lau - only a notch up from Jacky's since it's an elbow

Best deceiving frame advantage: Goh - this guy seems to be so sluggish, but if you get in a low/mid punching match with him, you'd better know what you're doing. This took me a while to get over.

Best Sabakis: Vanessa - true other characters have higher damaging ones, but nothing compares to her done right. Her other two are pretty wicked as well. Big toss-up between her and Goh, but the dreaded elbow sealed it for me.

Best evasive attack: Kage. Doesn't do the most potential damage, but seems to attach the most.

Best all-rounder: Who knows. One vote for me is for Akira. True, no full crescent, but he's got the 2nd best set of reversals, ample throw directions, sabaki's and super strong non-throw counterable moves. Weak point is that he's almost all mid.

Pai: For similar reason as Akira, but w/ the crescents. Potential damage per combo is a bit lower though.

Another would be Jacky, as he's got ample crescents (half and full), auto-parry, medicore directions only, and the rewards from a back CD are huge. Reversal game is lame though.

 

Best Evading Attack: Shun

Best 'One Hit/One Kill' Game: Akira

Best mid/low guessing game: Lion

Best attack/throw guessing game: Lau, Akira (if played correctly)

Best 'never stands still for more than 0.3 seconds': Lei-Fei

Best voice acting: Goh, Kage

Best English voice acting:Errmmmm Brad?...Vanessa?

Best throwing game: Goh

Best all-rounder: Akira, Lion

Best 1337 Ninja: Kage

Best 'suspiciously gay' character: Lion

 

The only parts I'd disagree on are:
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Best Evading Attack: Shun

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While this is definitely a good thing going for him, I'd give it to Pai before him - full circular.

You definitely hit the nail on the head w/ the Japanese voice acting. Aoi's got a good voice actress, but her lines are a bit cheese. I think all the English ones are lame.

I think Jacky's more suspiciously gay than Lion though - bigger size, higher voice.

 

man those characters are giving benimaru a run for his money.

Best sabaki - leifei, not because it connects, but it creates a lot of mind games.

Ill agree on shun for having best sidestep attack, even the computer throws it out there randomly.

I think lau is a better scrub starter. Float

 

I'm pretty sure Jeff's can be dodged (teh suck!!), and i remember dodging Lau's before. I think that's it though... i don't know if it's possible to dodge Jacky/Nessa/Goh or Sarah.

 

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Isn't every dodge attack full circular though? None of them can be dodged IIRC.

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I always thought most of them couldn't be evaded. Shun's evade attack is probably a conditional one: I think it would be very difficult/impossible to dodge if it's executed at close range, at long range it might be possible.

 

Whoops stand corrected /versus/images/graemlins/smirk.gif.

 

The only stuff I might debate...

Best for scrubs to use: Jacky

I go with lau here. Phear a scrub using PPPsweep, liberally applying df+P,P,K (I recently rediscovered the niftiness of that sequence), and lau's combos just hurt so much... 80-90 pts for stuff like df+PPPsweep or P --> P,b+P,P.

Best to float with: Brad

Do you mean to create float opportunities or to hurt you a lot once they're floated? I say akira (at least for the hurting you part). Pai has at least three killer float tools too which reliably give her high enough floats for at least 60-80 pts, two without counter. Kage's a good floater too with the FC upper and df+P constantly being abused.

best f+P - lau I think kage. He can actually create guessing games just from having it blocked (your best option is to run away). Statistically it's standard. Similar to lau's. If you recover in stance it's Teh Hot for recovery frames.

best crescents - I like jacky's, his K+G combos into d+K+G (sometimes on block) and is reasonably safe. He also has that killer mid crescent, which does a nice chunk and is a good followup to elbow staggers etc. He lacks a true sweep but gets P-sweep, and all the variants of backfist-sweep.


Best evasive attack: Kage Akira, because it dodges everything really reliably, completely reverses the ring, and gets a guaranteed ground punch for higher-than-normal damage.

Other categories -

Best Knee - Jeffry, even with crap recovery it's still better than a knee designed for poking or goh's MC-only knee.

Best Priority - Shun Di. In the rare cases that priority matters more than frame advantage, shun di comes out on top.

Best comeback char - jeffry. A predicted dodge nailed with b,f+P --> KKP is a lot of life. A predicted low punch beaten with a knee is almost half your life. A throw is 1/3rd life if they weren't expecting and escaping for it.

Best sidekick - goh.. interestingly he gets a fast, uncounterable sidekick (16 frames, -6... where kage's is 16 frames, -5) . It always knocks down, like a wrestler's, but other wrestler-types get slow, shitty, counterable sidekicks. Best of all, thanks to goh's nice recovery, he can combo from the sidekick. Usually the best you can tack on is a low kick, but sometimes you can tack on a standing K or even P --> K. That hurts.

best crumple tools - Akira of course.

best slam/flop tools - Lau has a nice high one (fast, safe, decent combo followups) and the mid one, though slow and risky, gives a painful guaranteed combo. There's also the hopknife... free combos, -5 on block, and never loses to a (predicted) low punch.

best character - I'm really leaning towards kage now that akira's been nerfed. Kage's gotten so many tools... and while akira's throw game gets worse and worse, kage is still a threat from 4 directions and he's got a true catch throw.

Most entertaining to watch - very arguable. I get a lot out of seeing goh. I think akira is a pretty solid crowd favorite, he really humiliates you.

Best ability to get combos without a counterhit - shun

Best wall rapist - lei fei

 

/versus/images/graemlins/blush.gif I'll be damned, you were right. Sorry i doubted you, man. Every once in awhile i forget i'm still a scrub. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

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Best Priority - Shun Di. In the rare cases that priority matters more than frame advantage, shun di comes out on top.

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IT'S SO TRUE! - it should be written on the foreheads of every moany ass shun player who thinks this guy has no good side /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif.

EDIT: - meh, i'll contribute to the topic in a bit.

 

I havent try it in EVO yet but in verC, AKira's dodge attack is definately dodgeable.

 

Best for scrubs to use: Lau. (or)/...sweeet! /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Best Nikatu: Akira. cancel, senbon punch, SDE. IMO, Akira is a 99% nikatu character.

Best TR-game: I agree with you on the Akira thing, but Pai's sweep/low-throw guessing game is very good. Lion's extremely strong in the TR-game too.

Best overall character
(I'll have to disagree with you on this one /versus/images/graemlins/smirk.gif)

I think the best overall is Kage.

He doesn't have a hit-throw or a ground throw, but he has everything else: Speed, mobility, excellent throwing game, great elbow and sidekicks, low crescent, Jumonji stance, backturned attacks, sabakis, reversals, autoparry, strong Okizime and great ring-out potential. Unlike Akira, he can fight at any distance. He also has the previously mentioned cancel and senbon punch, which makes him a strong nikatu character as well.

 

I agree w/ you guys on kage - he's quite a bastard this time around. As for Shun's "priority" really depends on the move. Just keep him at a distance and that priority will go out the door - believe me. Until 8 drinks, he's got nothing too quick that reaches very far. He'll lose against kage's +.

Evasive attacks dodged - if one person goes one way, and another the other, will it not whiff? I suppose this has to do w/ distance. Someone w/ a PS2 version try it out. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

i don't know about everyones but i sure know that Aoi's evade attack can be dodged! and whiffs all the time!

 

It can't be dodged - no evade attack can be dodged (I tested it yesterday /versus/images/graemlins/smirk.gif ) but I agree that it whiffs more often that other evade attacks.

 

Aoi's got probably the worst evade attack in the game. That whiffing is not it being dodged -- it just whiffs. I'm assuming the full-crescent Pai evade attack will hit more than others... again, needs to be tested.

It's no secret though - I've bitched about Aoi's evade attack forever. Not only is the damage lame, but your chances of hitting with it are slim to none, no down-attack guaranteed, and is throw-counterable.

 

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I think the best overall is Kage.

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Summers once asked me if I thought Akira was too strong, and I responded that no, Kage is just as strong. However, I think a big problem here is that most people think of "strength" from a very narrow perspective...i.e. Akira, Kage, Jacky, and Lau. I.e. people ask stuff like, "Does X character have a strong elbow? Does Y character have a good throwing game? Can Z character inflict N damage from a single combo?" Etc.

Those are very important criteria, of course, but there are a lot of things that people discount...

Take Shun for example. Now I seriously think Shun can make a contention for being the strongest character in the game (though ultimately I do believe the game is incredibly balanced). Why? When Shun is sober, it's easy to force opponents to play Shun's game.

Sure, Shun doesn't have a strong elbow, or an Aoi-type of throwing game, and he may not take off as much damage per hit, but he's hard as hell to hit. keeps him low to the ground. ++, is possibly one of the most annoying moves in the game. + is mid, half-circular, quick, and almost impossible to punish on block. has incredible range, even if it's a poor man's Jacky jab-backfist-sweep. passes through punches, LPs, and a load of other moves, and takes off great damage. + interrups everything, including rising attacks and is again impossible to punish on block. And that dodge attack is undoubtedly the best in the game...no question in my mind. Etc. etc.

And this is while he is SOBER. When he is DRUNK (i.e 18+ drinks) Shun is unquestionably the strongest character in the game. becomes a better move than Akira's SDE (yeah, better believe it). redefines what "-counterable" means. ++ is now not just annoying, but postively scary. The effectiveness of his throwing game just doubled. He gets a very good sabaki. Certain moves that left Shun at disadvantage (for balancing reasons) now put Shun at advantage. And when he is 25+? Phew...it's practically unfair. In other words, Shun can be played as a power character. Shun is simply ridiculous when drunk, yet he is more than capable of winning when sober.

Now, that's Shun, but one can easily make a case for Pai: crescents at every level, better than elbow swallow kick (though it does not stagger), fantastic range, canned strings, excellent throwing game (including low throws), useful stances, serious damage potential, moves that makes her avoid attacks, yada yada yada.

That's Pai...a super poker with a complete game. To contrast that, what about that wrestler Wolf? I will argue that if you can predict exactly what the opponent is going to do, Wolf is the strongest character in the game--he has something for every situation that can really, really hurt. But of course, there's a risk to everything.

And then there's Aoi....blah blah blah, I won't go into it. What I'm trying to say is that if you really get under the skin of a character, that character has the potential to be the "strongest" in the game, however you want to define it.

Our problem is that we still tend to think of a few variables...good elbow, big combo starter, high damage throws...which make Kage and Akira look good, but does this mean they are the strongest in the game? At the end of the day, it's always about how well the player can force the opponent to play his/her game.

 

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best f+P - lau I think kage. He can actually create guessing games just from having it blocked (your best option is to run away). Statistically it's standard. Similar to lau's. If you recover in stance it's Teh Hot for recovery frames.

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This is the impression that good Kages will leave on their opponents...but the reality is that Kage's elbow game is inherently defensive when blocked. Why would you run away?? Simply use a quick move that cannot be sabakied to interrupt Kage's + for MC damage. Once the Kage player has learned not to + blindly, it's a guessing game that's frankly in the opponent's favor since Kage would have to rely on low damaging moves like JM or JM . And if the opponent has a quick knee like Jacky, Sarah, Lion, et. al., Kage is !@#$%ed.

Contrast this to Lau's elbow-palm, Jacky's jab-backfirst, Sarah's elbow-swipe, Vanessa's jab-jab-midkick, Aoi's elbow-swipe, Brad's elbow-stance/kick (am I missing anyone else here??? Phew), having the initial 14-frame elbow/jab blocked doesn't mean much because those characters can continue on with the subsequent part(s) of their canned string. I.e. they can continue their offensive flow, and this is something Kage simply cannot do.

That said, no question the JM optionality is a big improvement from Kage's stand-alone elbow VF1-3.