"Why we play"

Hi guys,
I'm looking to make a short film/documentary about the reasons we play fighting games like Virtua Fighter, Tekken, et al.
It appears to me that the way some people practise Virtua Fighter, is almost akin to practising a martial art, or a sport.
This is what I want to explore in the documentary, explaining the appeal of fighting games, as a battle of two minds, or the buzz you get in the arcade on a winning streak against good competition.
Unfortuneately, being in London cuts down the amount of people who can be interviewed, so I'll have to rely on the UK crew down here to be articulate in explaining their views in front of a camera.

I look forward to playing against and hearing from you guys on Sunday.

Daggi

 

Incredible.....this is an idea that I've thrown around for a long time. Unfortunately, the scene isn't quite so big here in Toronto, Canada as it might be over in the UK or major gaming areas such as California. It would be really really interesting to see the final product for this. I think the fighting game scene contains the most hardcore fans of any genre....and it would be interesting to see what motivates the competitive edge in everyone.

If it isn't too long, I suggest you capture the movie and distribute it over the net in something like DivX format if possible.

 

whoa.

I had the same idea. I was actually thnking of doing a documentary on the same thing . I was going to gather inteviews at one of our gatherings in northamerica and jsut get views andperspectives to see what is the drive on learning vf, and comparing it to avid game junkies liek D&D/chess/scrabble etc. just more modern.
Sounds cool.
just got lazy on writing a layout and am really busy now.
later,

goat-stino


__-___---____

 

Waitaminnit...something's missing....
Oh yeah, no Chucky posts! Yet.

Anyway, I think you have a really interesting idea there. I would love to hear some of the reasons people started with certain fighting games (VF, Tekken, Soul Calibur, etc.), and why they either switched to others or hung in there with their favorites. What makes people travel hundreds of miles to play in tourneys and gatherings.


-<font color=white>Ghost</font color=white><font color=orange>DOG</font color=orange>

 

Re: "Why we play"

I think this is a great idea. but there's a few things I think I want to note.

I used to think that there was a really large common ground between practicing a martial art and practicing fighting games. While they do have many things in common, mainly mental things I think; there are HUGE differences. Namely, real martial arts force you to deal with exhaustion, physical fitness, and pain in a very real way. While fighting games require mental stamina, none of the very prominent physical aspects come into play, other than hand eye coordination/fatigue.

I'm saying this not to say you're wrong about your idea, but I think that if you present your idea as "showing the similarities between martial arts and fighting games", you might stand to alienate or even piss off the real martial artist section of your audience. Perhaps it's better to point out how fighting games pay tribute to martial arts, and when played well can reflect their beauty. It's like the difference between being a pro skateboarder and being good at Tony Hawk 2. You can get good at one in a few weeks; the other takes a lifetime of dedication to truly excell at, and you have to be willing to sacrifice your body to do so.

The worst day in a arcade carries a lot of mental anguish, but it's nothing compared to a bad day in a dojo. A bad dojo day could land you in the hospital, or in pain for weeks.

Anyway, I'd love to see someone make this kind of film/video. But to do it right, I think you'd have to go to Japan as well, where the games are made and the culture is accordingly rich and supported (i.e. VF.net, mooks etc.).

In response to Ghostdog, I started playing real fighting games with Street Fighter 2. I played Yie Ar Kung Fu, but it's not the same to me. When I first saw SF2, I didn't play it. It seemed really complex, and I didn't know anything about it. I remember telling my friend who also played games that we were most likely missing out, that I thought it was probably the best video game in the world, literally. If you played that game, you could practive for a long time trying to beat other people, and even if you did master it, which you probably wouldn't, there were 7 more characters to learn. You could start over 7 times. Shortly after, I started playing SF, and didn't stop for 4 years, until I saw something called Virtua Fighter 2. I would never play SF seriously again.

And here I am.

Spotlite

 

I think I started playing SF2. I didn't dominate, but I was OK. I think I had a curiousity about fighting games back then, so whatever came out, I tried. I must admit that I wasn't immediately impressed with Virtua Fighter, but I played it (mostly Sarah, then Pai). VF2 came out at a time when I trying to get into the MK scene. But I played it, and played it, and played it, and it's been VF ever since. Well, with a little Tekken, Soul Calibur, Tobal, DoA, and SF sprinkled in.


-<font color=white>Ghost</font color=white><font color=orange>DOG</font color=orange>

 

Re: "Why we play"

Pretty much same here

I started from the very very very ancient 'Fight Street' on the PC engine CD rom n arcade...

Graduated to SF2 on the 'super gun' ( I am sure the Singaporeans here can at least *remember* paying 5 bucks to play half at hr at shops)

God, back then...we judged someone by their ' shoryuken' skills...it was so hard to do a shoryuken when u're like 10 yrs old...

Back then, I would take a bus...travel from east to west to play good players..just so that I can ' WIN'.

I remember the where I first saw VF...At Marina Square...they took away SF n replace it with VF instead...I was like WTF~!!!~?

Then I came over here n never had a chance to play games...until I went back for a short holiday, played VF2 for a bit, never had a chance to get into the game( holidays too damn short)...Then with VF3..the rest is history...

Maybe it has to do with the Australian culture that is drilled so into mah brains...maybe it had to do with all the coachings my footy coach shoved down my throat...

During our very last match before the team is going to be disband ( we all graduated from Yr 12..yeah~!), the coach kept us in the dressing room and basically said something I will remember for a long long time.

" u play to enjoy urself..u dun play to win premierships..u play because u enjoy playing with ur mates...and u play because u enjoy the game, u play the game because U enjoy practicing to be better at the game...U play as a team and U live and work as a team...At the end of the day, U will remember ur wins, U will remeber ur losses....but most importantly, U will remember ur teamates and ur friends U have found thru our football code". ( Aussie Rules ROCKS~!)

These few advices from a retired Major of the Australian forces ( who happens to be my discipline master n my footy coach) who did two tour of duties in Vietnam really kinda
changed me, from a person who used to be so focused abt winning...to the person I am now ( I know..weird)

These are the reasons why I love the VF series.

<font color=red>~~~ 'Flock off feather brain, or u can stick around and find out the hard way!/versus/images/icons/mad.gif~~~'

 

Gratuitous violence with no reprecussions (well, unless it starts a real fight heheh)....that and pure competition...bragging rights/talk shit rights.

"Victory can be anticipated, but not assured" Sun-Tzu

 

Heh, guess I got a little carryed away yeasterday with post, i will try to make em more usefull for here on..
Anyways I started out playing Street Fighter II and Mortal Kombat at the arcades, and was pretty happy doing that=) somewhat around 1993 or soo VF1 was introduced in arcades, I played it a few times but diden't really get into it, Tekken1 came around a little year later and i wasen't hooked then either..
It was half a year later that VF2 was introduced in arcades and that really got me spending alot of money learning moves,throws ecs. Tekken 2 came a little later, and by then I was ONLY playing "3-D" games, SF and MK was gone, since then VF3 and Tekken 3 came and I grew in learning the game proberly, you could also find guides and faqs on the internet by now, and I really learned alot..
I must admit that there was a long period of time after late 1997 where I wasen't playing VF at all, mostly because the lack of competition, and in Tekken there was plenty..
Now is a diffrent story VF4 has come out[finally!] and everybody is talking strats and stuff all around the internet, but most importently people are playing VF again..

 

Re: "Why we play"

There are other people working on a documentary similar to this.... Jab Strong Fierce productions were making a documentary about the Street Fighter scene. The has a whole camera crew at the B4 tournament, and interviewed a lot of the players. They also went to the USA vs. Japan tournament that followed B4.

Dunno whatever happened to that movie though.... every once in a while one of the moderators at shoryuken.com posts to assure us that it is still in production, but who knows if we will ever see it.

 

Hehehe... I'm still wondering if "Bang the Machine" is still in the works. Wonder if they're gonna have a special segment on: "The effects of interfering a vital match with a boom mic."/versus/images/icons/tongue.gif

In any case, I do hope they finish that project whenever they do, but I'm sure the demand now is a lot smaller than earlier this year. It almost feels like it's been two years, but it's only been around one. Too bad there wasn't a film crew at B5, but I guess the good part would be more room and less interference (and less mics getting in the way). Hope they did record the tournament though... Maybe they recorded them on the external TV setups?

As for the subject of this thread, if you go through with the project, GOOD LUCK (you're gonna need it). The reinterpretation of the drive to strive for excellence is interesting.... in terms of games, you see it everywhere in different forms such as styles of play, what one looks for in their opponents, what aspect of the game they actually enjoy (this varies quite a bit, more than many would like to believe).

-Chanchai

 

Yeah they recorded the matches at b5 and are putting out a b5 dvd later this year. Check SRK.com for more info.

Under the surface of the most jaded cynic lies a dissappointed idealist- George Carlin

 

The difference between VF4 and other fighting game

Out of all fighting games around, what makes this stand out is the high level of mastery you can attain. Of all fighting game 'mountains' this is highest to climb.

Here's why. I shall use past games to assist in my theory.

Streetfighter 2. Lowest common denominator. Reaction times needed to survive are not too high. Combos are limited to imediate follow ups. Juggles are rare.

King of Fighters 94. The first 2D beat em up which had a high level of attainable mastery. Some very skillful and difficult combos available, such as Terry Bogard's 2 in 1 Power Geyser. This got the ball rolling further.

VF2. High skill level introduced to the 3D market. Akira's Stun palm combo. Very fast joystick speed to acheive. Unfortunately only thing in game which required such a high level of dexterity. Later to be rectified in the souless (arguably) VF3.

Tekken 2. High level of skill needed, high mountain of mastery. Was limited to some linear rules within the program, but still somewhat vast. T3 took it even further.

Dead or Alive 2. Superhuman level reaction times, although too high damage recieved and given. A highly underated game that every VF4 should give time too. Mastery level is not high, as once you get the hang of the reversals it's a matter of who's faster with the right counter. Much like REAL martial arts.

VF4. The daddy. Fast reaction times needed. As fast as DOA2 [cant wait to see DOA3]. Combo potential near limitless, due to few linear combos and vast array of moves and hidden delay breaks. Very VERY high mountain to climb. You have the following to achieve before attaining mastery :
Find a character who has some attacks you can use well imediately,
Understand these attacks,
Understand the chatacter,
Adapt to the character.
Learn combos from every type of situation - example, hitting from above, some is trying to sweep you, someone is trying to rush you etc...
Stopping them and using the oportunity.
As Bruce Lee said 'the art of fighting without fighting'.

The parralell between masterring this game and martial arts is incredibly similar. That's what got me interested in the first place. Mo's pitch very much described it this way.

Hope this helps

D

When in doubt, do nothing.

 

Re: The difference between VF4 and other fighting game

Dan - while I'm the biggest fan in the world of VF, I gotta disagree on your assessment of some of these games, esp. Street Fighter. Maybe you're talking about the original SF or even SF2. But since then there have been like 10-12 official 'street fighter only' games and maybe another 20 based on the engine.

I was originally a SFer before becoming trapped by VF2. At high levels reaction times are more important in SF than in VF. Since you only need d/b to block 95% of the attacks in a SF game, it's important to learn to be able to recognize overheads (the other 5%) and walk-up throw attempts. Good reflexes will help a lot in situations where you're trying to get up without getting raped.
SF is all about reflexes and spacing. VF is more about brains and careful efforts to maintain initiative. As for the combo system, SF pretty consistently has more hits per combo than VF, at least any version past SF2. SF3 has plenty of juggles, in fact it has some infinite juggles. Street Fighter Alpha 3 has a major counter float combo system and the flip idea is very similar to the QRs in VF4... an opponent who stubbornly flips can also be juggled infinitely in SFA3.

As for VF2, while the only official command that needed a lot of joystick speed was the SPoD, this by itself is meaningless. A lot of games had weird and difficult joystick motions for powerful special moves, but that doesn't = depth, there will always be a level of players who do these moves 100%.
Combos with rapid fire senbon punches and instant modified double palms or upknives require a great deal of dexterity. Other stuff like the iaigeri kick required good timing. These are the trademarks of VF2. VF2 is/will be the most difficult combo game of the series unless VF4 shocks me. And it's not as difficult as some of the capcom game combos are.

Finally, I won't talk about tekken because that flame war has been done to death, but DOA isn't a masterpiece of gameplay to me. There are too many canned stuns that give free throws and combos, and reflexes? Who needs reflexes when you have a one button no brainer reversal? DOA is paper-rock-scissors with tits and fists. I don't even give it a higher rating than tekken on the depth-o-meter. While you can argue that ALL games have this paper-rock-scissors aspect to them, DOA has pared it down to such a bare-bones level that you might as well close your eyes and mash.


Anyway we DO agree that VF4 looks like it will be the best fighting game in the world. Just so I contribute something to the thread besides nitpicking, what I get out of VF is this:

***Outsmarting an opponent. Boy does it feel good when you know what the opponent is going to do, and you do something that perfectly proves it, and both you and opponent know that you've got their number. Probably the most simple example I can think of is pulling off a kickflip reversal in VF3. A fairly advanced example I've heard of but can't take credit for: Wolf and Akira are fighting in Wolf's stage. Wolf successfully blocks a rising attack from Akira and has his back to the edge of the ring. Akira has pretty much no choice but to enter b,f+P+G to do a throw escape to counter Wolf's giant swing. The Wolf player knows this (probably because he's been in this position dozens of times) and instead hesitates a split second, then enters f+P+G. He does this so that when Akira enters b,f+P+G, Wolf is successfully thrown, but wolf then escapes that throw with f+P+G. Why would wolf willingly let himself get thrown only to escape it? Because the b,f+P+G throw when reversed causes akira to run past the opponent for 20 feet, and in this situation Akira ends up running right out of the ring and looking like a chump.
This is yomi at its best.

*** showing off your dexterity. This amounts to pulling off a nice combo that requires quick and careful inputs. Not just a SPoD or DLC but a fast modified double palm or buffered yoho. Also in this category is stuff like the reflexive E-low side throw and the continuous dodges into a sudden crouch dash throw.

Okay, I rambled so long my ISP killed the connection. That's the guts of what I wanted to say.

/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>~~~ Don't make me rape you with a sharp stick ~~~/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>

 

Re: The difference between VF4 and other fighting game

Nobody but the most patient of you will spot it, but I meant Jacky's stage, not Wolf's. Nurrrr

/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>~~~ Don't make me rape you with a sharp stick ~~~/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>

 

Re: The difference between VF4 and other fighting game

>Maybe you're talking about the original SF or even SF2.


Yes I was talking about the original SF2.

>I was originally a SFer before becoming trapped by VF2. At >high levels reaction times are more important in SF than in >VF. Since you only need d/b to block 95% of the attacks in >a SF game, it's important to learn to be able to recognize >overheads (the other 5%) and walk-up throw attempts.


I would only agree with this during the Super / Alpha series. Tap throw was doable in the early Streetfighters, but people refarined from using it, due to being shunned by their fellow arcadees.


>Good reflexes will help a lot in situations where you're trying >to get up without getting raped.


True


>SF is all about reflexes and spacing.


No shit. All fighting games are. Even VF. Smart fighters have a set of tactics for each level of distance from other characters, for instance, Vanessa players are likely to use the f,f+p+k when a fair distance away from a standing opponent.


>VF is more about brains and careful efforts to maintain >initiative.


'More' about brains? I don't think it's so much that, I think it's moreso to do with adapting to a far wider variety of tactics, whereas in SF games each character is limited to a handful of play styles. Even the latest in the series show this quite blatantly.


>As for the combo system, SF pretty consistently has more >hits per combo than VF, at least any version past SF2. SF3 >has plenty of juggles, in fact it has some infinite juggles.


I never played SF3. I misphrased my meaning of combos. in SF turbo X and beyond, a combo can be one joystick command (Ken's super dragon is a 5 hit combo). What I meant was 'continuos strings of movements'. If you were to adapt this to SF Turbo X it would mean 'Flying kick, mid sweep, super dragon'. That is what I meant by 'limited' in combos'. Akuma, Ryu and Deejay where the few characters who had some 'intelligent' combos where people would learn to recognise hidden recovery to take advantage of. Again, I was talkingg about SF2 original.


>Street Fighter Alpha 3 has a major counter float combo >system and the flip idea is very similar to the QRs in VF4... >an opponent who stubbornly flips can also be juggled >infinitely in SFA3.


Again, I am not experienced with SF3 to comment, I'll take your word for it.


>As for VF2, while the only official command that needed a >lot of joystick speed was the SPoD, this by itself is >meaningless.


I don't believe that's true. This was a fluke on the developers part, as it's popularity showed them that this is what the players wanted and opened the door for other such move strings in VF3, or so I assume as I am not a VF3 player.

I know such 'fast input with perfect frame timing' commands are available n VF4. Vanessa for instance has a counter into her low grab which must be performed very accurately AND swiftly, whereas most combos in 2D games and even Tekken must just be performed swiftly and forgive sloppy joystick movement.


>A lot of games had weird and difficult joystick motions for >powerful special moves, but that doesn't = depth, there will >always be a level of players who do these moves 100%.


That was not what I meant. Those joystick movements were hard to do and those who could combo them where regarded high in skill. It was more what you could do with them. For example, when you had your 'rage' bar up AND your 'RED energy' you special moves and supers would affect the movements differently and hence your combos would have to change. Not obvious, but lets say you wanted to two in one Terry punch into power geyser. If he was fully powered up, you'd have to do it real deep. This may not seem deep to you. In this day and age it would not be, but back then it was and it was one of the few games in the aracde that generated a real buzz. Regular VF'ers Mo and Hatim will tell you that.


>Combos with rapid fire senbon punches and instant modified >double palms or upknives require a great deal of dexterity.


Huh?


>Other stuff like the iaigeri kick required good timing. These >are the trademarks of VF2. VF2 is/will be the most difficult >combo game of the series unless VF4 shocks me.


I would have to disagree, but then 'difficulty' with things is always subjective. I tend to find VF4 quite hard to play, but then that is due to me adapting my 2D fighter style, so I have to get used to 'f,f's' as opposed to QCF,HCF movements.


>And it's not as difficult as some of the capcom game >combos are.


I definitely disagree with this, again, I'm used to circles so I have no difficulty with this. I'm assuming you're used to f'f's so this may be difficult for you.


>Finally, I won't talk about tekken because that flame war >has been done to death, but DOA isn't a masterpiece of >gameplay to me. There are too many canned stuns that give >free throws and combos, and reflexes? Who needs reflexes >when you have a one button no brainer reversal?


This is where people would not give it the time. Reversals can be reversed into more reversals. It's also not as easy as you think. My brother and I have matches purely of reversals and setup combos and they are really exillerating. Great kung fu matches lie purely of reversals and counters. Watch 2 VERY GOOD DOA2 players and you'll see what I'm going on about. It's very fast paced and very impressive, but ONLY at the highest level of skill.


>DOA is paper-rock-scissors with tits and fists.


And VF isn't?


>I don't even give it a higher rating than tekken on the depth-o->meter. While you can argue that ALL games have this paper->rock-scissors aspect to them, DOA has pared it down to >such a bare-bones level that you might as well close your >eyes and mash.


I disagree with this. DOA is guilty of the 'beginner can get in and win by accident' factor, however NOT against a highest skill player. Once you've really mastered reacting properly with reversals into setups and counters, it's on a similar level to VF4 for skill level, only 3 or 4 plateaus down. Tekken is an entirely different game to DOA2.


>Anyway we DO agree that VF4 looks like it will be the best >fighting game in the world. Just so I contribute something to >the thread besides nitpicking, what I get out of VF is this:


Possibly. It is now anyways, in my opinion. It's been finished for ages. VF5 is probably already on the way.


D


When in doubt, do nothing.

 

Re: The difference between VF4 and other fighting

how do you guys write so much!?? i think we need some framesets on this site!!!

^_^ *LOL*

 

Re: The difference between VF4 and other fighting game

what I mean about the "more about brains" part:
In SF, especially the later games, predicting what your opponent will do isn't as important as simply keeping attacks out there that guarantee that you can stuff all possible attack patterns he might make. Poking is very big in SF. In VF normal attacks you use all the time make you lose initiative and force you to guess your opponent's reaction in order to deal with it appropriately. For example, you can safely poke with P, but if you do an elbow (Which is blocked) and then try to follow with a punch, your opponent may knee you out of the punch. In SF attacks don't recover as slowly and this guessing is rarely needed. You can poke all day with jab, strong, and fierce. The guessing game only seems to happen A: when someone's getting up from a knockdown. and B: after some moves like Cammy's spiral arrow (moves which are VFlike in that they have nasty recovery -for a SF move- and you have to guess whether or not the opponent will respond with a quick high priority move, or continue to block, or try something nutsy like walking forward to force a throw guessing game. Anyway my point is that in VF you constantly are thinking about what your opponent is going to do next, as in which specific attack. In SF you know they're just going to poke, and if you're facing adon it doesn't really matter if he pokes with st. jab then low strong then st. roundhouse or low strong, low strong, low forward, st. roundhouse. In SF you can throw out dozens of effective, safe moves in each round little or no fear of retaliation. In VF you must stress out after almost every move except PG. Even the almighty low punch and a fairly quick elbow are not safe.

re: tough moves - Trust me, VF2 combos are harder than any others in the series. Since VF1, the designers put in really tough moves, such as akira's knee... they put in a limited number of these in each game to please people to enjoy these tests of dexterity. They happen to be useful and damaging just to keep things fair. A lot of other games have this... samurai shodown two has a 7 hit uppercut for haohmaru that you may be aware of, with some ridiculous command like df, HCB, RDP, HCF+P.
BUT! Back to the point. These preporgrammed toughies are just for fun, something a casual player can show off with. It's really not that hard. It takes just a few tries to get it down. SPoD, DLC, knee, and even tough to time stuff like Taka's elbow-hit throw are NOTHING compared to the REALLY hard combos. This is the m- stuff and PKG's and iaigeri kicks that made you go "huh?" .. those combos are not preprogrammed, but the joystick motions needed to do them are very fast and complex, you also need sick timing. It'll take a lot of tries to do them.
Before you disagree, sit down and try one of the akira combos in GLC's combo faq for VF2 (I think it's on gamefaqs.com)
An example of a VF2 combo that probably whups anything VF4 has:
For akira:
ST, knee, PKGx6, iai, m-dbpm

That's a stumbling trip throw, a knee, 6 PKG's (6 punch-kick combos cancelled with guard at the earliest possible moment to create a punch with almost zero recovery ... you need to enter punch-kick-guard about six times in about 2 seconds), then an iaigeri kick (a high kick guard cancelled exactly on the 12th frame, it can't be one frame earlier or later) followed by a modified double palm, which is a crouch dash immediately followed by a double palm command. The crouch dash is needed so that the double palm comes out faster than if you had simply crouched the usual way. The m-dbpm command is d/f, n, d/f, n, b, f+P. Most players can't do this combo at all but about 21093429403 of them can SPoD in their sleep.

Re: SF games that are harder combo games than VF2, I'm thinking of the VS games. Doing low forward into QCF x 2 +P is pretty easy compared to some of the stuff in Xmen vs. Street Fighter.

Finally, on DOA: I will probably never see high level DOA play, but VF is NOT as rock-paper-scissors like as DOA and hopefully never will be. The designers in VF try very very hard to keep each move fair and I don't see this in DOA. I see just about every move in DOA getting a 4 second stun on counterhit, I see uncounterable attacks that can cause this kind of stun. I also see moves that float for free. VF is trending towards 'free combo starters' as well and it makes me somewhat sad, but at least the free combo starters in VF have either loads of recovery or slow execution. DOA reversals are also sick not just because they are easy, but because they're really damaging, universally catch about 20 different moves with one command, and often give you initiative by stunning the opponent or giving you their back rather than knocking them down. I was sad to hear that VF4 reversals are dumbed down in this way. Aaaanyway, DOA can be played at high levels, and so can killer instinct, but how much longer will you be playing VF4 after high level KI or high level DOA bores you to death?



/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>~~~ Don't make me rape you with a sharp stick ~~~/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>

 

Re: The difference between VF4 and other fighting game

This reminds me of the arguement long ago how senbon punches are cheap as it is possible to instant kill someone with just one punch. Well, if you can defeat me with perfect senbon punches... you can probably defeat with 101 other ways.

I agree, VF2 seemed to be the one with the most difficult combos. I do not really like that as I can never seem to do the difficult stuff. I can't even do DLC yet.... The good thing about VF is that there is always the characters with simple inputs and yet strong, like Lion in VF2. sidekick stagger, d/f+P, high pounce. Simple move and yet so effective as his sidekick dodges low punch in VF2.

But creed, you should not be so quick to judge VF4. There may be some insanely hard combos but now it is too early to tell.