Dead or Alive 5: Last Round

I really don't understand what you're trying to determind what DOA's problem is? I also don't understand how adding "powerblows" and "powerlaunchers" mean they don't know what direction they want to go with the game? Powerblows and Powerlaunchers isn't really a big deal in the game. I mean they don't really determind the outcome of the matches.

Why do you compare Alpha to Dural? Alpha isn't considered OP or broken.

Helena and Christie you see often in tournaments, because the players who use her often compete in tournaments. Those same players always used those characters. It has nothing to do with how "good" those characters are. Those players even use other characters in tournaments also.

Also I have to say if your beef is with the "hold" system, after all these years you should have figured out the game just may not be for you. if you don't like the core system in a fighter, you definitely should be trying out another. Besides, there are ways to punish players for whiffing holds. If up to the players to learn how.

 

The reason I am critical of the power blow and PL is that, yes, they increase the amount of guarantee damage, but they seem do so in an arbitrary way.

You should be able to have your guarantee damage all the time, not just once per round. It's like saying 'oh well, we cannot improve the stun/hold system, so let's introduce a gimmick that somehow alleviates the problems inherent with our system'. Which is stupid, as rather than having moderate damage for moderate risks, you have huge damage or no damage at all.

The criticism that I read most often of DOA4 is not that the game was simple because of the stun system! Afaik the game favoured defenders too much, with strikes being negative frames on hit! (Isn't this strange? It seems counterintuitive to be at disadvantage after landing an attack). I guess for me that's a glaring issue with the system, rather than the players. Same thing with SC4 and the stupid guard breaking system...games should not need those gimmicks just to circumvent the fact that defending is advantageous.

To me, VF system make sense in that P have small positive frames on guard, which makes it possible to put pressure on defending opponents. This is to say, it's not 'only good for VF', it should be a standard feature of all (3D?) fighting games.


PS: As for Akira being unbalanced...well he's not really that easy to win with!

 

DOA doesn't have a problem, the problem here is that you don't understand the game.

You and BinDiesel are just further proving a point I made earlier;

Please read Tenryuga's post above, which explains things about DOA's system.

No, some of the older DOA veterans stopped playing because they aren't winning anymore. And they aren't winning anymore because there are other players that threaten their top 3 spots (aka it isn't just about them anymore). Plain and simple, and fact. If they can't win any money, then they have no reason to travel and play. Most of those players only play for themselves, and the money. Rather than the enjoyment and challenge from good tournament play.

Christie and Helena are seen often at majors "because those players go to tournaments and compete". Those players just so happen to play those characters, that's all there is to it. Counter holds are not being whiffed every few seconds in grand finals. Watch NEC 2013 grand finals, or KiT, or SCR 2014.

DOA is respected by a lot of players, I know this because I've spoke with several people like Alex Valle, Justin Wong, Filipin0man Chris g, some SF X T and Melee players at SCR 2014. All who also congratulated me for placing 2nd in DOA5U at SCR 2014 with Ayane, simply due to the fact that the character was never seen in top 4 at a major and they enjoyed my footsies and fundamentals (especially Justin).

And they have personally told me that they like DOA (Filipin0man played DOA at WNF at Super Arcade several times to support it and because he likes DOA).

People pick up the game and attempt to learn it. The game is NOT as big as it actually could be simply due to the fact that online warriors just want to play online (i.e. they don't support the game where it matters).

Again, everyone in here saying the game is bad, it's because you haven't actually learned how to play it, or actually taken time to learn it's mechanics. Once again, Tenryuga has explained some of the system in his post above. Read it.

 

power blows/launchers aren't the only way to get damage on this game, you still have launchers, flops(or bounds), and critical burst. Sure, you have to mix them up, but isn't that how you get guaranteed damage on pressure on any f-game anyway? Through either Mix-ups or frame traps?

I do agree about strikes being negative on hit being weird, that and the okizeme system are my two biggest complaints about DoA, but those alone doesn't make the game shitty (SPECIALLY when you compare DoA to nowadays 2D fighters, it's mechanics are a paradise compared to Ultras, HD, OverDrives, X-factors, etc...), and it's notable that TN is trying to make the game better with each new version of it.

 

You're just making complaints about a game/system you don't understand. You're not really making any points of relevance, you're just whining.

Some strikes are negative on neutral hit because the game is heavily based on free cancelling and delaying strings/strikes. Which is why the game focuses more on fishing for counter hits. Being positive on hit this way would be ridiculously absurd and would allow for a no risk/huge reward offense, which is not balancing anything out at all.

If you actually study a game, then thoroughly study it's frame data, things begin to make sense. I can tell A LOT of players just look at frame data and just assume something is stupid because they refuse to acknowledge any purpose behind why something is what it is.

Powerblows and Powerlaunchers are not gimmicks, they are mechanics that influence a comeback factor for players taking the risks to set it up. ALL Powerblows are mids, either punch or kick. Powerlaunchers as well. They can be mixed up with, and powerblows can be dangerous for whiff punishment if used as such.

Defense is a strong fundamental to have (seems like lots of players in lots of fighting games lack it, and don't want to acquire it, a basic fundamental lol). This is why mix ups "exist", so you can attempt to break an opponent's defense before that player finds the right opportunity to break your offense.

 

DOA doesn't have a problem, the problem here is that you don't understand the game.

That's not true. I understand the game, or at least, I understand it enough to see that it's system is less rewarding for me than VF. Having said that, I enjoy watching DOA5 vids because the game makes watching entertaining with huge combos and crazy comebacks. With VF, there is less of that for sure.

PS: Case in point, your match with CS. Jacky was dealing huge damage, especially in the last round, mixing in PB with stuns. Fun to watch, but terribly frustrating I think having your life wiped out like that on a whim. Then again, it's your game, so as long as you're happy with it, fine.

 

Meh. I honestly have no problems with the Power Blow or the Power Launcher. Not sure if you know this, but you can get way more damage with the power launcher for Jacky due to the fact that it requires execution (4 FSK's in a row). The PL and the PB is the " Comeback Factor " as you may know. Most people go for PB's because they aren't on point with their PL combos, some may use it for environmental damage. This game is very in-depth with tech and it's not like you can just PB instantly, you actually have to set it up.

 

No you don't understand the system. You haven't said anything that tells me you actually do, since you've started posting. You've just been complaining about a game you obviously don't like. All you've been saying the entire time is "I like VF so I prefer to play it".

Again, DOA is not VF, VF is not DOA. Of course the reward system will be different, because they are different games. You are just too well adjusted to VF's system, and haven't actually explored DOA's system enough to understand the game (you really haven't). The system and meta are different (something you refuse to acknowledge).

It's like you literally skipped passed Tenryuga's post on the previous page, which explains DOA's system, just so you can continue complaining. You and everyone else resort to being prejudice simply because it's easy to do. When you can't get into a game or don't understand something, you say it has a problem because you fail to understand a meta and system.

 

Wow. lol I haven't been in this thread for a while, but things have gotten really interesting! It's really awesome to see you guys from FSD here on VFDC now: @DestructionBomb,
@Prince Adon, @iHajinShinobi, @Tenryuga! Welcome to VFDC!!!(The second welcome here that I'm giving to you DB lol)

Anyways, continue on everyone! And as civilly as possible please! This is a great opportunity for critical dialogue between two closely-related communities; This is a rare and great event, where we can all hopefully reach some sort of understanding! And this was really needed anyway, because within the last few pages the discussion had reached a point where it would be needed for native-DOA players to really chime-in and offer some feedback to VFers' concerns. So thank you guys for chiming in here!

A few other things from my point of view: A lot of you guys have made some really good points, such as mentioning how much different that this game is offline...DOA is not VF and vice-cersa, or how one has to learn this game and really get into it to understand the system, holds being a form of punishment, or how there are various methods of defense available to you, the various methods for scoring guaranteed damage, or how the PBs/PLs do increase opportunities for guaranteed damage! Oh, and on that defense part, I'd like to throw in fuzzy guard actually being useful in DOA to a point...Although risky due to the universal low-throws if misused.

And yet, at the same time there are various other points that have been made throughout this thread that I feel are just as valid when criticizing DOA's system...Such as: the workings of the stun system, the frame-data concerns, negative guard breaks, and the perception of PBs/PLs as arbitrary. The length of the frame-windows on holds and holding during stun are also issues IMO.

Anyways, I've already offered my opinions on DOA throughout my journey in this thread as I have been getting accustomed to the game...And now that I have gotten used to the system, I accept it for what it is now, work with it, utilize it, and continue to hope that TN will continue trying to improve the system...

That said, I wanna drop this vid here of me playing offline casuals with a buddy...Especially for the other VFers here, seeing how I play as a VFer coming into DOA:

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Again, it cannot be stressed enough how much different this game is offline compared to online! It's SOOOOOO much better!

 

Of course I am biased. We are in a VF forum, so its not difficult to imagine that I like VF better than DOA. Still, I dont think my preferences is purely subjective,

I bought DOA5U on the day of release and full price, so I think I am a big fan, considering also that as I said, I enjoy watching YT vids of the game played competitively.

 

Yes they are, because it's all opinionated, nothing factual. YOU JUST SAID IT, "Of course I am biased."

To those saying holds during stun is an issue, it is not an issue. I'm going to keep referencing Tenryuga's post because there is nothing for me to explain what he already hasn't. the active-window on holds in DOA5U are A LOT less than they were in DOA4 as well.

 

Im going to explain the stun game a bit right now. The stun threshold is divided into critical level 1, 2 and 3.

Critical level 1 - Normal hit launch height
Critical level 2 - Counter hit launch height
Critical level 3 - Hi-counter hit launch height

Naturally the higher the level the better the juggle that becomes available to you. When an opponent is stunned there are many stuns and attacks available to a player that they can use. Here are some of the unique stuns:

Crumple stuns: These stuns negate stagger escaping. If you get caught by one of these you MUST hold if you do not want to take damage. They are pretty weak to instant holding because instant holding greatly reduces the advantage these give. Instant holding is basically holding a very brief moment after the stun makes contact.

Lift stuns: These stuns negate instant holds and last a very long duration. They are the best choices to extend stun because they allow you alot of time to react to what the opponent does whether it is a hold or stagger escaping.

Turnaround stuns: These stuns force the opponent into a BT position. Depending on the amount of frame advantage offered and the speed of your followup the followup may become a guaranteed hit.

Faint stuns: Faint stuns are exactly what the name implies. The character falls over unable to hold. These stuns usually guarantee launchers or followups.

Limbo stuns: These stuns usually occur when hitting the opponent with certain moves in open or closed stance. They guarantee attacks but the opponent can stagger to make themselves fall to the ground more quickly; Reducing the amount of time you have to followup.

Sitdown stuns: These stuns negate holds but a player can SE to reduce the amount of frame advantage thus limiting the amount of moves you can extend the stun with.

In addition to these types of stuns some characters are equipped with natural combos on counter hit and in stun. The significance of these is that once the first hit connects the following hits cannot be held making them optimal tools for scoring counter hits and achieving critical level 2-3.

You must keep in mind that not every character is meant to play the stun game. Some have poor tools to do it and others do not even need to get to critical level 2-3 for sufficient damage. An example of such a character is my main, Ein. He can hit anywhere from 73 to 89 points from one counter hit stun into a launcher. This damage does not include the potential damage from walls, environmental hazards or danger zones. He also has massive knockback on his whiff punishers that allow him to reap the benefits of these things.

Now for defense when stunned:

A stunned opponent has three options: SE, hold, and crushing strikes, preferably ones that stun on normal hit and launch on counter / hi counter hit status.

Staggering will reduce the duration of stuns and possibly allow you to throw punish players doing a poor job setting up their launchers and unique stuns.

Holding is best done when you have a read on your opponent. This is where string recognition, reaction speed, and understanding of your opponents stun game tools come into play. If they tend to go for their guaranteed stuns hold on the hit level that shuts down those stuns etc. Holding should be kept to a minimum because if you mishold not only do you risk taking Hi counter damage from throws, but you also allow your opponents to gain access to options that would have been shut down had you been staggering.

Crushing should also be done when you have a read on incoming throws or highs. This is a high risk high reward option. The risk is that you put yourself at chance of getting CH again. The reward is that you may possibly reverse momentum with this move. Keep in mind if you default to this you will find yourself getting CH constantly.

The stun/hold system is not flawed because the rewards are appropriate for the risks. If you do not want to gain access to critical burst for a power blow or power launcher and choose to launch immediately you get the minimum launch height and damage. If you give your opponents more chances to shut down your setups by extending the stun your payoff is greater in the form of higher launch height and a chance at critical burst for the power launcher / power blow.

All in all it is easy to shut down players who misuse the stun and hold system.

 

Just want to say, you guys have my utmost respect for coming over to this community to give a hand in understanding the game of DoA, and offering to answer any questions we might have about the game. That's really awesome of yall to do that.

I can't speak for everyone. And if you've skimmed the last few pages, you'd know I enjoy the game, but the thing that frustrates me the most is the stun system. It just sucks to get touched by something, not being able to block after it and being forced to guess between the 4, then 3 hold options to get out of it. Or stagger escape, which is fine. But seeing as how many times one gets put into a stun, I find myself spinning my stick for a lot of the match. It just feels like the smallest moves mid string can put you in a 'not able to block' state. And that's just how the system works. That's DoA. But it can be frustrating. Especially coming from a game where you have to launch or get a slammed knockdown down to get guaranteed extra hits in, for the most part.

Punishing abare can be a lil hard here, due to the fact (as far as I know) disadvantage from a blocked string and some moves can be fairly small. It's just a matter of knowing when to attack, like right away and with the right moves and abare isn't too much of a problem anymore. Similar to VF or any FG to an extent. If you wait too long to punish, yea you're going to lose the exchange if the other guy was mashing out while u wait for em to do some kind of defense tech. But if you both attack right away, the one that had the advantage is going to win for the most part. Unless the other guy did a move that slips yours. It just feels a lot harder to do so in DoA.

I dunno. It's too much on my mind about it, and can't really dump it all here. I'd probably be better off copy pasting my recent post, hahah. That said. I like DoA for what it is. But some things is just urrggg, hahah. But at the same time, simply not knowing how to deal with things/lack of knowledge enhances those feels. I'm sure stuff that works on me and confuses me won't constantly work on yall.

*EDIT*

Just to add. Helena used to be really hard for me to deal with (though she still can be a wench, hahah) but not too much anymore because I know when I can attack back now, so she can't just keep going like she used to against me. After playing against her for a while, you start to notice things people like to go for. Like her sweeping or coming in with her slide in low kick (can't really explain it) after you tech roll. It's just a lot to learn. One can't expect to just hop into a new fighting game and be good at it. And chances are, there's going to be things in the system that will frustrate you. Unless it's Virtua Fighter, lol. I'm just playin there

 

In this post I'm going to explain the frame data and DOAs offense.

DOAs offense is not traditional fighting game offense. This is not to say it doesn't exist in the game; It is just not the primary form of offense. Offense in DOA revolves around string manipulation and scoring counterhits.

What I mean by string manipulation is using string mixups, delays in your strings, or cutting your strings short to attempt tick throws or start a string on another level. In other words mixing up via free cancelling. Some characters excell at this such as Kasumi. Others like Hayate lack delays and string mixups but gain access to guard breaks and traditional fighting game offense (frame advantage/frame traps) to make up for it. Granted though some guard breaks are negative on block and that is something that actually is flawed. I actually think guard breaks in this game could be a little better as well as existing moves that grant frame advantage on block.

In order to prevent this offense from being too strong it is necessary to have moves be highly negative on block. This allows players to punish opponents who complete their strings or use unsafe attacks in an attempt to open people up. This punishment is done in a variety of ways:

1. Counter hitting free cancel attempts - This is only possible because some pokes are so negative on block that a player can react to the cancelled string and counterhit you for trying to free cancel mixup.

2. Counter hitting delay attempts - This is harder to do but still very much possible if your reactions and reads are on point.

3. Holds - Like I stated before holds are here to disrupt the opponents offense. They are not a tool to be abused because if you abuse them you will get grabbed for massive damage.

4. Sidestep - I explained how to use this tool properly a few posts back. I'll say it again: Use sidestep attacks against slow linear pokes or linear pokes mid / late string. Early in string you will want to do a simple sidestep or multiple; which will result in you gaining frame advantage off their whiff. This can allow you to throw or strike punish attacks that aren't punishable on block or even frame advantage on block.

5. Throw punishment - If you block and wait for players to complete strings or use punishable attacks in their pressure this option is available to you and is good because it guarantees damage.

Which brings me to my next point: guaranteed damage. Some of you have claimed there is a lack of it in this game yet don't even consider that throws are a source of guaranteed damage due to them being unbreakable or realize that there are fifty million breakable objects and hazards in stages that allow you to get launchers for free. Lets not forget that near a wall or dangerzone you can shift your pressure to moves that wall splat on normal / counter hit for an instant juggle or damage.

 

Yes I also had this gripe with abare when I first started DOA. However once you learn that the game revolves around CH and a majority of the mids in the game stun on CH you can really go to town on these players if you commit to your mids and delayed strings. These are usually the players that resort to crushing as their primary defensive option. Mids are your best friend against these players and in DOA in general.

 

@Tenryuga- Awesome, detailed write-ups there!

I hear where you guys are coming from(regarding holding during stun)...I do admit, performing a HCT is a great counter-balance to that which I absolutely love!

About the active-frame window, I didn't know that they decreased them.That's good! Do you feel that decreasing them further would enhance the system?

As I mentioned before, this is good, this is the type of discussion we need here for everyone to come to an understanding on the game and to bridge our two communities! There's no need to fight about it here or troll it elsewhere!

 

Ah! So I ran into you here. I was looking for at FSD to tag you in my blog that I wrote on the FR17 weekend. Good to see you around man.

 

To the DOA newcomers,

Thanks for coming and sharing your points of view. My experience has primarily been online so I can't really comment on the offline portion of the game. With a game as fast paced as DOA, my guess is that it's way different offline.

As I said before, I like DOA a lot, but the online performance was really terrible for me so it was hard to take seriously (since online is my primary means of playing.) I probably should have been more explicit in that it's hard for me to take seriously because I find online play bad, not because I think DOA is bad.

That being said, I think it would be most beneficial if the FSD guys did a write up about how to transition from VF to DOA. That will probably be more informative because while I have gone to pretty great lengths to understand DOA, the mind shift is really hard.

 

I would love to do that, produce a write (as I love making guides to help players in my spare time for it). However, I am not the best person for that simply because my knowledge of VF5FS (or VF in general) isn't vast as it is in DOA (or SSF4).

I can, however, always offer time to play people willing to learn the game and help with the basics or whatever else they want to know about the game.

 

Thanks for your posts DoA players, seeing @Tenryuga explanations made me noticed how much I still have to learn about DoA system (I don't understand the types of stun yet, I just use SE when I fell holding would be too risky, and since I play a character highly focused on stun game (Kokoro) I should step my game up).

Pretty much this, it's risky to extend your stun till the very end, and at the same time, you can easily punish/take advantage of players who doesn't understand the stun system. If they are just mashing hold you can throw them for Hi-counter damage, and if they are just standing there taking the hits without trying anything else you can just optimize the damage you are going to do on them.

And like every other game, having experience of match-ups is important if you wanna get good at it, of course you are going to have a hard time getting out of stun against a character you don't know how to play against, but once you learn the character and it's strings, you can start making reads or reacting to stuff.

Idk, I feel DoA is a fair game in terms of Risk/reward, but then, my first competitive f-game was BB (I transitioned from anime to SCV/VF, and then to all 3D), and THAT is straight up the definition of a fucking unfair ass game.

Ah, I'm around on all 3D scenes! I just don't use the english forums much cause I prefer talking to my local scene most of the time.