8P finisher.

I used the forum's search function and found nothing about that.


(Short version: What would you think of the opponent if they frequently finish their combos with 8P and you can't figure a way to escape it?)


I'll start with the reason for this thread.

From Sarah's compiled combos, what you get from CH FL3K is as follows:
58dmg closed
62dmg open
59dmg open
? dmg closed
66dmg closed
68dmg closed


Sarah in dojo versus Brad.
CH FL3K,6K+G,8P. 66-69 damage, guaranteed in both stances unless perfect recovery between 3K and 6K+G, which seems rather improbable to me.
I think I forgot to test a few things, but it seems guaranteed on Jeffry, Wolf, Lei Fei, Brad and Lau. (Unless perfect recovery.)
Other characters can either quickroll on one side or any side.

I found similar combos that end in a pounce, offer bigger damage than what's found in the compiled combos list, don't depend on footstance, and are guaranteed unless perfect recovery.
Their only downside is perfect recovery. But even that could potentially open mixups.
It mostly affects Jeffry and Wolf, which usually force you to use the least damaging guaranteed combos. So against heavies, you can trade a tiny bit of certainty for potential high or mid-high damage combos.


Now for my question.

Imagine that you're fighting someone who frequently ends their combos with a noobpounce, but no matter what you do, you can't avoid it.
What happens in your head? Do you get frustrated? Does it seem disrespectful to your skills? (Like, is it an unwritten rule to not (ab)use the noobpounce because normally it shouldn't work?) Does the opponent look like they're not worth your time? Do you get curious about why it's working on you, interested? Is it just part of the game and you give no more thought to it? Etc...

I want to know what people would think in that situation.

...Or maybe people have a reason to think that perfect recovery is easy to perform even in unexpected situations.


...I don't know where to post these kinds of threads. There's no Dojo thread for system, it's not really related to Sarah, and I'm not sure if it's fit for the newcomer place.

 

Doing a pounce means forefeiting wakeup pressure. Your opponent will always be glad when you give up damage. Thus try to avoid ending your combos with a pounce, even against heavies.

...I should know, i both pounce and lose a lot

 

This combo does not work even if they normal tech, let alone exact recover (if you want to see if something is exact techable then go to CPU settings -> Details -> Recovery from falls and choose one which says "exact" if you want to see if something is normal techable then do the same thing but don't choose the exact options). If you wish to use this combo that's fine. I practiced this versus Blaze with exact tech on and if they DO tech you can get as a tech trap (the staggers, does 34 points of damage, alternatively you could do for again 34 damage but this time +3 in FL stance instead of a knockdown) versus both in place and side roll techs.

I must point out though that this is not an exact only combo, doing this you will most likely get tech rolled then launched.

Also you said about "teching in unexpected situations" this doesn't really happen in VF. You either tech or you don't, you have plenty of time to realise your character is falling and so there's really nothing to catch you off guard.

Personally after FL CH I go for either , (59pts of damage, any character any stance, no wakeup game). Or ,, (59pts of damage, any character any stance up to wolf/jeff, wakeup game). Or (cancel FL),, (66pts of damage, on various characters, closed stance only, max damage garaunteed combo,no wake up game). Or (cancel FL),, (62 pts of damage, all characters in closed stance only, wakeup game).

Below I just noted down the characters where (cancel FL),, doesn't work but (cancel FL),, does. I'll go and add this info to the Sarah combo section now.

, , did not work on: Pai (backflip didn't connect, did for 62pts of damage instead). Blaze (see Pai notes). Goh (see Pai notes). Kage (see Pai notes). Jacky (see Pai notes). Akira (see Pai notes). Wolf (see Pai notes). Jeffry (see Pai notes).

Also, regarding pounces. If you hit some against a wall in a combo it's likely you get a free guaranteed pounce attack. Here's an example: , , if the backflip hits them against the wall you should be able to get a free pounce in for guaranteed damage. It's also worth noting however that if you do a guaranteed pounce in a situation like this the opponent may also be able to do a free guaranteed mid rising attack! (If you want to see for yourself set CPU to Fastest rising speed, Rising attack: Mid and do the combo I just told you about on Eileen and try to guard after the pounce). This is caused by the other character being too high up, hit against the wall from the last hit of the combo before the bounce, so if you for example do (delay here) you will see they will no longer be able to get a free rising attack. Another time Sarah gets a free pounce is when wall splats (it's also the max damage option)

Another note on pounce attacks is that you can "option select them" this means that if you do a move which knocks them down and you wait to visually confirm that their body is resting against the floor you can do (hold direction and P throughout) and if they tech roll you will jump backwards but if they lay there doing nothing you will pounce attack them.

 

Unless the pounce was guarenteed it would be my fault for not teching it.

 

Mm, I hadn't thought about that.
With Sarah I really hate wake up. When the opponent is on the ground, I run away because I'm the one who's scared. Sarah is supposed that have a great wakeup game, but P+K on wakeup seems awful to me.
But if I had a ground throw, things would be different. In that case I'd probably avoid Pounce.
My normal reflex would be to believe that it's only a newbie thing... But I remember that even against good players, I almost never feel pressured when I'm on the ground.

Even though I might not have tested properly, I said I think it's guaranteed on Jeff, Wolf, Brad, Lei, Lau and Brad, and not on the others. In fact what interests me with the pounce is that it completely shifts the weight tables! Heavies will always eat it, and as a bonus some middle-weights might too. (And then it gradually goes down. Some mids will eat it unless they quickroll in a certain direction...Some lights as well. And other lightweights will escape in any direction.)


And I feel really bad for saying this because you wrote a huuuge post, but I understand how to use the options in training mode.
When I say I might not have tested properly, it's because I think I forgot to test the footstance in some cases... But against Brad I tested both stances, and I'm 99.9% certain that it's guaranteed and very useful against Wolf and Jeffry in this combo's case.
(Unless you prefer to trade almost certain damage for wake up damage instead. Personally with Sarah I *really* don't, but I'm the weakling here. And if my character had better wakeup options, perhaps I would prefer wake up rather than pounce.)

I think it answers my question, but you wouldn't know if it's guaranteed.

Thank you all for your answers so far.


Edit: The main reason why it's in General (or was...aww.) is because I mostly want to know what you all think about people who use Pounce. So don't forget to answer to that, thanks!

 

Only use heavy punce if it's guaranteed or you're playing someone who doesn't tech.

No reason to forfeit damage and oki at the same time.

 

Well since it's now in the Sarah forum, my general "okizeme" game if you'll call it that is to backstep far away and 33K as soon as possible if they use a rising attack...
Is there a more threatening option? A reason to stay nearby?
P+K seems to be a tool that should only be used sparsely.

...And I'm still mainly interested in what people think of those who pounce. (Not their opinion on pounce itself.) But it seems that I won't get many answers on that... I'll just assume that people don't really care about that move.

 

I duno if this has been said or not..
but, While rising delay kicks are "punishable".. most or if not all are -15. So u can block it and punish..
or depending on how they are lieing on the ground, u can OM or evade linear quick While rising kicks.. So thats another alternative. I kinda went over While rising kicks of alot of characters, and all the characters seem about the same.. like all usually minus 15 delayed..

but, it is different on each character by a little bit sometimes. on how to "evade" quick while rising kicks.. Like Akira and goh, u can OM and evade their WHILE rising kicks all day long compared to others. Another thing which may be of use is crushing moves while they wake up... its easier applied on quick While rising kicks rather than delay, but u can still do it on a delay, just alot stricter for timing. For example, i can time GOH KNEES to CH hit u while u r trying to do a While rising kick.. You can also look at the command list and look for moves that have "activation" of 3 or more?? those indicate that they have higher activation/priority kinda.

neways, ur thread gave me an idea. If i do a ground punch, and they do a While rising kick.. i wonder if it becomes delayed While rising after that..
( :

 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And I'm still mainly interested in what people think of those who pounce.</div></div>

Well it depends entirely on when they pounce. If it's in the middle of a match to do max damage then it makes sense. If it's to beat someone who doesn't tech then it makes sense. If they do it to finish a combo they could have got more damage out of then I think they're an idiot and if it's after a round the win I assume they're trying to wind me up or are getting annoyed with how I play.

 

Yeh Sarah's wake up game (oki game) is fine but I wouldn't say it's great because of lack of a mid full circular and her mid half circs don't cover her back.

No, you should not always dash away when opponent is on floor. That encourages them to roll away with them completely unpressured. I mean, backdashing is fine but it only beats 1 thing - wake up kick. I've been thinking lately about how to make my wake up game better. Backdashing away from rising kicks you will mostly see in matches after some fancy stepping to bait them from a quick, whiffed move, you know just something to bait them into actually wanting to rising kick you.

If you want to be up in someone's face and pressuring them whilst their down (as you should be doing) then you can dash right up to them when they're down and if you see their character flinch (rising kick startup frames) do 7K+G backflip with Sarah and catch it. This means that you can be in someone's face and if they choose to rising kick if you react fast enough they are useless against you. I know if someone was using Sarah and they were dashing up to me, pressuring any techs I do while also reaction hitting my rising kick I would be shitting myself!

Also why do you feel the need to P+K as okizeme? It's not a good move unless they crouch (pretty much a gauranteed FL 3K crumple combo). 1 note on the P+K though is that if they're face is towards you (not sure if this only works on face up head towards, or either, but it 100% definitely does work on face up head towards) then P+K will sabaki a mid rising kick whilst hitting a low rising kick (but not counting as a successful sabaki) and giving stagger (hellooooo FL 3K crumple combo!)

3K+G to beat evade + go under highs + hit low. 8K+G for being a mid half circular, fuzzy safe attack. 6P for being a 14f cdfg safe mid. 4K for being a very effective +4 on block FL entry. Serpent smash cannon for being a hit checkable mid launcher, great as a delayable move versus failed evade. 66K+G because of it's scary mid full circular follow up and it's ability to cancel into stance, first hit produces stagger where the followup is garaunteed or cancel into FL mix up such as 2K+G hit throw or 3K, or throw, or 3K+G hit/guard throw. 4K+G~G for instant FL entry. 270/61P+G throw to catch standing guard and evades. 9P+G for standing move whiff punishment or to beat evades. P jab to gain advantage on standing opponents. Dash in 2P...because...it's 2P!

Basically just a few moves there you should think of doing instead of just P+K which is only +2 on block, completely linear mid and launch punishable if evaded!

EDIT: You're still wrong about the combo you talked of. I practiced versus Jeffry just now and he can still side roll to either side or inplace recover (non exact) practiced from both stances against every type of non exact tech, and yeh, it's easily techable.

Also don't think I'm trying to look down on you when I talk about the dojo options! Sanjuro Akira was on the shoutbox yesterday and didn't know about the exact tech options, and he's supposed to be a really good player!

 

Thanks for the ideas, I didn't know that 7K+G could be viable for okizeme. If I learn to use it well, it would fit my style perfectly! P+K was because there's a whole wiki page dedicated to that on wake up.

I'm glad to see that it's not the main thing that Sarah has on wakeup.

For the combo, maybe there's a misunderstanding because I don't use the proper word... My game is in French so I don't know how it's called in English. I meant any type of instant recovery... When you press P+K+G while reaching the floor. There's a just frame one and a normal one. I mean both.
If the opponent can't do either of these, then the pounce is guaranteed and gives more damage, especially on heavies.

You say that it's easy to recover from though. To me it doesn't look easy at all in this case. But if it's indeed easy to recover after CH FL3K, then I guess it's not worth much after all...
I'll test it whenever I can though. I still believe that it's worth something.

Besides, as I keep saying, what I want to know is what's the general opinion towards those who use 8P.

Don't worry, I didn't take it this way, I simply wanted to clarify. Besides I'm the newbie, so it's even more understandable.

 

8P is fine. It doesn't work in non garaunteed situations very often unless you use the option select method I talked of. In order for you to even condition them to not tech roll you would have to have great oki and actually not make them want to get up. If you continually tech trap them or apply oki pressure they will surely become demoralised.

If I get hit by 8P when I'm knocked down and it's not a guaranteed situation I pretty much tip my hat to them because they made me not want to tech and also were able to change their flow and pounce instead of trying to pressure what's not there.

Us here on VFDC only really get pissy about 8P pounce if it's at the end of the round as it shows a lack of respect. It's like VF's version of a taunt basically.

EDIT: If you meant what's the opinion on people that use pounces in combo's that's pretty much a different matter. To me if someone was using pounce in a combo it would tell me that they don't really maximise their damage and also don't employ oki after combos. For me pounce should only be used in combos after wall hits or after back flop knockdowns from a distance where something like jab may whiff (something like Sarah's 4K+G from max distance). I don't know of any max damage combos using pounce without the conditions just said.

 

Alright... But what if the combo is completely guaranteed unless people manage to P+K+G out of it? (AND gives maximum damage, or maybe ~5-10 less from possible wakeup options.)
In some cases P+K+G is very easy, but in other cases it's very sudden or unusual.
It gives more damage than the usual combos, affects heavyweights and some middleweights.

Against heavyweights, if you don't use that, you're forced to use low damage combos to gain some wakeup pressure.
And if you succeed, you get about as much damage as you would have dealt with that pounce combo.


Still, thanks as always for the explanations. It gives an idea of what kind of reaction I should expect from people who are not aware of my real motivation behind the pounce combo ender.

 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">unless people manage to P+K+G out of it?</div></div>

You should always assume your opponent will tech. Most people tech everything. especially if they notice that you're going for stomps as it can give them 60-100+ points of damage (or a ringout) depending on the character and ring positioning.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">AND gives maximum damage, or maybe ~5-10 less from possible wakeup options.</div></div>

If it gives the same amount of damage you can go for it but again, I wouldn't go for if it it is not guaranteed. I personally like being able to apply pressure to my opponent waking up. If they don't tech (which you are assuming) then I get a free light pounce which adds up to more damage anyway.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In some cases P+K+G is very easy, but in other cases it's very sudden or unusual.</div></div>

A lot of failed techs are the result of lag.

A good example of a strange tech is head over heels knockdown.

An example is Jacky's Pak Sao.

You can tech at two different points, when you first hit the ground (exact) and after you flip (normal tech). From my experiences most people tech on the second landing. But that might just be a product of lag.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Against heavyweights, if you don't use that, you're forced to use low damage combos to gain some wakeup pressure.</div></div>

That's fair enough to point out but I'll use Wolf as an example here as he's the character I'm most familiar with.

You try and heavy pounce and I tech roll. I get to hit you for free with 80-90 damage and apply my own wakeup game or quite possibly ring you out.

Is it really worth that risk?

 

I think I see what you mean, but the thing is that sometimes it simply doesn't look like you could P+K+G out of a certain situation at all.

Maybe you'll see what I mean if I explain what it looks like.

Let's say Sarah vs Jeffry.
CH 3K on Jeffry.
Jeffry puts his hands on his stomach, falls on his knees and falls on the ground.
At that exact moment, Sarah hits him with 6K+G (The leg makes a 180 degrees from top to bottom.)
There's no bounce or flying anywhere.
Sarah hits Jeffry because he didn't PKG out of that.
Jeffry tries to get out of there as fast as possible, but it's hopeless because the pounce is guaranteed.

Does that change your opinion at all? Or did you already know how it looked, and you still believe that it's risky?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If they don't tech (which you are assuming) then I get a free light pounce which adds up to more damage anyway.</div></div>
And to make sure that it's clear, it's not quite the kind of pounce that I'm talking about. The other pounce is 100% guaranteed if they don't PKG out of the combo, and to me it seems nearly impossible in this case.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You try and heavy pounce and I tech roll. I get to hit you for free with 80-90 damage and apply my own wakeup game or quite possibly ring you out.

Is it really worth that risk?</div></div>
And for that, today in dojo I found out that this combo makes perfect use of 7P. There's no waiting at all.
CH FL3K, 6K+G, 7P.
If they PKG, you jump away.
If they don't PKG, they eat the 100% guaranteed pounce.


Addition: To me it looks like combos where pounce finisher is 100% guaranteed unless PKG give a new strength to 7P.

 

The knockdown from CH FLA -> FLA + is just normal techable, and some characters can roll out from under the pounce too. Its really really risky to do heavy down attacks (pounces) when they are not guaranteed, because you will eat the worst kind of launcher if you miss. Especially since damage from heavy down attack is not really that great.

Heavy down attacks are useful if opponent hits the wall and cant tech, but thats about it.

 

There was so much confusion with this thread...
Outside of the okizeme bits and the extremely rare answers to the actual question, I think I learned nothing from all of this discussion, both here and on shoutbox.
In the future, if I have more questions I'll just ask them without any explanation, this way people won't pile up on me trying to tell me that I'm wrong about this and that and things are such and such.
I'll think thrice before starting a new discussion...

 

Confusion? Alright lemme make it crystal clear for you then.

Don't use that "combo" of yours it's absolutely terrible and is suicidal.

Pouncing in combo's is utter shit unless no other move can reach there in time or unless they hit the wall.

Pouncing in guaranteed situations = good
Pouncing in non guaranteed situations = stupid

Pouncing on people at end of round =

 

Your thread summarized: Do you think it's cool to heavy pounce?

Who cares? What do you get by knowing 67.23% of VFDCers think heavy pouncing is 34.2% less cool than drinking a soda? Or sponge-bathing a lemur?


All the italic and bold text are opinions. They're useless in relation to performing moves. It's either possible or not possible to tech, pounce, or perform anything in the game. Whether you can do it or not is a personal issue.

You got real information about the use of pounce.

You get two pages of discussion (which is what I expect that you wanted). Then you complain...

Fortunately, you came up with an answer I like.

Stick with that. You don't know enough about the game. Read the wiki. Read the system in the wiki. Talk to the players that frequent the shoutbox if you have questions like "Is it cool to do x." Talk to them if you have gameplay questions. From my experience, the regulars do not lie. If they don't know the answer, you'll hear it right away: "I don't know the answer".

In regards to improving your VF game... pay attention to what is happening at each exchange. Do a move only if you expect it to work. Be prepared to follow it up. If you are getting pummeled, recognize what is happening to you - are you getting thrown, staggered, counter-hit, delay-attacked? Adjust accordingly.

Looking forward to playing you again online.

 

If Plume can see then his opponent can't tech roll then I see no reason not to do the combo, it's guaranteed if they don't tech. Pretty silly to be not getting that extra damage if your opponent is making it easy for you.