Low Throw Frame Data

Discussion in 'Dojo' started by Sente, Mar 11, 2025.

  1. Sente

    Sente Well-Known Member

    Core Information Summary
    • Typical low throws are 10 frame startup with 1 active frame and 36 total frames

    • When a player is forced into a crouch position from a hit, they are still registered as crouching for another 4 frames. This means a +6 normal hit forced crouch move will allow the attacker to attempt a low throw on the opponent if the opponent does not attack, evade or standing dash.
    • When a player is recovering from a crouch position after executing an attack, they are still registered as crouching for another 6 frames. This means it requires a +4 frame advantage to allow the attacker to attempt a low throw on the recovering opponent if the opponent does not attack, evade, or standing dash.

    • The forced crouch position from a hit also allows the defender to use from crouch moves without the need to buffer a crouch.
    Detailed Information Summary
    • From neutral, holding [2_]+[G] for a minimum of 5 frames will register the player as fully crouched for a single frame's duration for throw purposes. If [2_]+[G] is held for exactly 5 frames, the player will be registered as fully crouched for throw purposes for exactly 1 frame. EDIT: Specifically, I am stating it requires holding the input for 5 frames to register a crouch for a duration of 1 frame. This does not state anything about when the player enters a crouching state.

    • A forward crouch dash will be considered crouching for throw purposes for 8-22 frames (depending on if and when [G] is pressed). EDIT: Specifically, I am stating the duration of a crouch state, not when the crouch state occurs.

    • A backward crouch dash will be considered crouching for throw purposes for 19-21 frames (depending on if and when [G] is pressed). EDIT: Specifically, I am stating the duration of a crouch state, not when the crouch state occurs.
    To Do List
    • Test low throws from characters other than Aoi

    • Test more forced crouching moves other than Aoi's [6][K][P], [6][4][P], and [3][P] moves.
    Recreating Testing Data
    • Tests were done only with Aoi low throws, so data may be skewed.

    • I suspected a 10 frame execution, with 1 active frame for low throws based on side roll fall recovery windows and verified it with further testing in various circumstances. Low throws needed to be done 4 frames later than Aoi's [6][P] to hit the same frame, implying a 10 frame startup. Active frames longer than 1 frame would have resulted in much larger low throw windows. The nail in the coffin was in neutral testing where the low throw window could be restricted to only 1 frame.

    • Testing scenarios were considered from the DIY frames analysis thread, however some of the data was either incorrect or changed for REVO. Attempting to recreate some of the scenarios resulted in different outcomes from what was stated in the thread. One of the first tests stating low throws may have a 0 frame startup with 10 active frames was from an incorrectly applied [1][P] > [3][3][G] scenario with Kage and Aoi. Strictly applying the inputs causes the low throw to whiff instead of connect. Further testing showed a crouch dash can have 8-22 frames of being fully crouched depending on when [G] is pressed.

    • Testing data can be recreated from the attached Eddienput scripts. They assume the vf5revo_keyboard.json is used from the Testing Frame Data thread.

    • To easily sync the attacker and defender actions, the recorded commands should not enable the delay option. The non-recorded commands should enable the delay option. A 2-frame delay is usually consistent on my setup. If the recorded commands do not sync properly to the 2-frame delay, re-recording the commands normally does the trick instead of needing to change the 2-frame delay. Your mileage may vary.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 8, 2025
    Mister likes this.
  2. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member

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    Myke623
    This is incorrect. Holding [2_][G] takes 7 frames to be considered crouching (for throw purposes) which is why you can crouch under a throw from -1 to -3 disadvantage, and is the basis for Fuzzy Guarding.

    Further, a forward Crouch Dash [3][3] enters a crouching state (for throw purposes) in 5 frames. This is why you can CD Fuzzy Guard from -4 to -5 disadvantage, and why you cannot crouch under a throw (either by holding [2_] or [3][3]) when at -6 disadvantage or worse. This situation is commonly known as nitaku (or perfect/true nitaku) where you are forced to deal with either of the two choices of mid or throw, and cannot entirely nullify both with a single defensive technique.
     
  3. Sente

    Sente Well-Known Member

    I was very specific with my wording. I did not say at what frame either input enters a crouching state. I was stating the durations. The durations were stated since I did not see readily available information on the duration of the crouching states. I'll edit the original post to emphasize those points. If you want a video demonstration of at least the first point, I just uploaded a video showing holding 2+G for 5 frames registers a character as fully crouched for at least a single frame. It is exactly a single frame, but I did not bother showing how shifting the timing would result in the high throw connecting unless you want further video proof. Holding the input for more frames results in more frames of crouch state, as well. The setups are notated in the Eddieinput scripts (2g attacker/defender).

    This post was specifically to determine what the frame data was on low throws since searching for information on low throw frame data was mostly missing. The closest I found was in the DIY Frames Analysis thread stating low throws were likely 0 frame startup with 10 active frames. This did not seem to match up with my experience of how the rules work in VF5, so I set about trying to test it as rigorously as I could.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2025
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  4. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member

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    I've already replied in the Aoi-related thread on this topic, but the Throws wiki page mentions that all throws (high, low, side, etc.) take 10f unless otherwise noted. But I do agree in including that information in the Command Lists would make this much more visible, so allow me a bit of time to update that.

    Thanks for the video demonstration, and I think it's a bit clearer to me now. It's suggesting that for the purposes of a low throw you are considered to be in a crouching state in 5 frames (i.e. you are low-throwable). However, as I was asserting previously, for the purposes of a high throw you are considered to be in crouching state in 7 frames (i.e. you are not high-throwable) by holding [2_].

    Is that accurate?
     
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  5. Sente

    Sente Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the feedback! I somehow completely skipped over understanding the line "all normal throws" means including low throws when I read the throws wiki since many/most characters do not have a low throw. Thanks for taking the time to update the command lists! It means a lot to a lot of players in the scene at my locals right now since they feel they have to hunt around several different areas for information.

    TLDR
    For the purposes of throws (both high and low), holding 2+G for exactly 5 frames when in neutral will result in a crouch state (with respect to throws) for exactly 1 frame. I did not test when the crouch state occurs with respect to the 2+G input. This 1 frame crouch state will cause the high throw to whiff and the low throw to connect.

    To be precise, I did not determine when the character is fully crouched with respect to when the input is done. I only determined the duration of the crouch. The testing was to see what was the exact minimum requirement in neutral to get a high throw to whiff. I found holding 2+G for exactly 5 frames will result in a crouch lasting exactly 1 frame with respect to throws. Then I shifted when the input is done to force the high throw to whiff. I then tested it against a low throw done at the exact same time and found the low throw to land. Moving the 2+G input one frame earlier or later causes the high throw to connect and the low throw to whiff. This shows that a low throw only has 1 active frame since more active frames would mean shifting the input would still allow the low throw to connect. Also, the low throw and the high throw are input on the same frame, meaning the low throw and the high throw have the same execution.
     
  6. Sente

    Sente Well-Known Member

    Using the input display in training mode, these were the inputs when both players were in neutral resulting in the minimum input requirements to cause a high throw to whiff. The start of the inputs for both players are at the same time. I use a 2P double-hit trade in my setups to ensure both the attacker and defender inputs are synced to the same frame. This helps to verify the recordings are playing correctly (due to inputs being sent to the game from one player, the recording may be a frame off due to timing error once in a while).

    Attacker:
    0, 2 [P]+[G]

    Defender:
    5, 5 [2_]+[G]

    I cannot conclude when the duck happens with respect to the start of the input for [2_]+[G] because of possible command input parsing. For example, in the following scenario:

    Attacker:
    0, 1 [G]
    0, 2 [P]+[G]

    Defender:
    0, 1 [G]
    5, 5 [2_]+[G]

    The high throw will connect. But, when it's:

    Defender:
    5, 5 [2_]+[G]

    or
    4, 1 [G]
    0, 5 [2_]+[G]

    The high throw will whiff. I haven't gotten around to testing exactly how certain inputs are parsed by the command parser and when the move will execute, so I never conclude when something happens based solely on when the input is pressed. I conclude it with relation to something else happening.

    On another note, I just found out how to do the fancy [3], [7_], [P], [K], [G] stuff by guessing. Spent a few minutes trying to find where the instructions were to do the icons instead of using text, but could not find them. Is there a place where it's notated so new visitors know how to do it?

    For those who want to know how to use the icons and currently do not know, use square brackets [] to enclose the text for the notation. For example, to denote 3 (down-forward) you would do [ 3 ] without the spaces like so [3]. For holding a direction, append _ (underscore) to the number (i.e. [ 3_ ] like so [3_] ). The buttons are P, K, G as expected.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2025
  7. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member

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    Myke623
    Just to respond to the easy part first:

    The Command graphics are available directly in the editor toolbar! Just click on the Smilies button and it'll expand the gutter to reveal the available smilies, then select the Commands tab and simply click away.

    upload_2025-3-14_10-53-9.png

    Alternatively, in the footer of the site is a Help page that details, among other things, all the availabile Smilies along with the BbCode text:

    upload_2025-3-14_10-54-25.png
     
    Sente likes this.
  8. Sente

    Sente Well-Known Member

    I somehow missed the Commands tab when I clicked on that. Whoops!
     
  9. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member Content Manager Pai Bronze Supporter

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    Thanks for sharing your findings on this. If I understand correctly what your findings are:

    You have to press [2][G] for approximately 5 frames for the game to recognize your crouch attempt to avoid high throws?

    To go from crouching to standing, by holding [G] or no input, it takes 7 frames (the same as holding [2][G] from standing to crouch). Low throw / High throw attempts at opponent that recovers crouching and is:
    • -2 Jacky [1][P] NH ,
    • -3 Lion [2][P][+][K] NH
    • -3 OM [2][P] Blocked
    • -4 Pai OM [1][K] NH
    • -5 [2][P] Blocked
    But crouch to standing by Defensive Move, would be immediate I think.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2025
    Sente likes this.
  10. Sente

    Sente Well-Known Member

    Yes, at least in neutral it requires a minimum of 5 frames of holding the input for the game to register a full crouch with respect to throws. I have not tested in other scenarios yet. It is in my backlog to test it during other situations.

    This is great information for me, thanks! I did not realize this was the case yet. The only information I was truly aware of was the opponent would be in crouch state for some period of time.

    It is definitely immediate. In the case of a side roll fall recovery, there is a 3-frame meaty window for attacks. It is followed immediately by a 3-frame low throw window. By holding [G] until the end of the 3-frame meaty window then immediately entering [8] or [2] for 2 frames to get a Defensive Move will avoid a low throw aimed at the first frame of the low throw window. I have tested this exact scenario in the Okizeme Frame Data several times.
     
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  11. Zass

    Zass Well-Known Member

    There's something I'm not understanding here. In the dojo, I tested Wolf vs Lion, and had Lion do [2][P][+][K] on NH. I'm at +3. If it takes 7 frames to stand, so I should be able to throw with a 10f throw. But when I tried [P][+][G], it misses. So does [6][2][4][P][G]. And so does [2][P][+][G]. How is Lion immune to both high and low throws here?

    And when I try [4][2][6][P][+][G], that does work. So does [8][6][2][4][P][+][G]. Both of his "big throws" work, but those are also 10f. Why would the big throws work but not his normal throw?
     
  12. Sente

    Sente Well-Known Member

    Lion is spaced out from a normal ranged throw after [2][P][+][K]. You can test this by waiting a long period of time and then doing [P][+][G].

    Also, as additional info, it seems that if you force an opponent into a crouching state from an attack, it requires a +6 frame advantage in order to be able to low throw them if they just attempt to stand normally.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2025
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  13. Sente

    Sente Well-Known Member

    So, an update to getting low throw in certain frame advantage situations. It seems if an attack forces an opponent into a crouching position upon connecting, it requires a +6 frame advantage in order to attempt a low throw if the opponent attempts to stand normally. I tested this with Aoi's [6][4][P] (+6 NH) and [6][K][P] (+5 NH).

    In order to attempt a low throw if the opponent is recovering crouching from executing an attack, it requires a +4 frame advantage. I tested this with [2][P] (+5 if blocked), Pai [6][6][P][+][K] (+5 if blocked), Jacky [1][P] (+5 if blocked), Jacky [4][P][1][P] (+4 if blocked), and Kage's back turn Shippujin [2][P] (+3 if blocked).
     

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