Transition from SC5

1B:B is a one frame window for the JF. If you drop the JF, free launch. They can JG the second hit on reaction (local players do this routinely where I am) if you block it, giving a free AA at least for most characters.

This move is neither free, nor safe.

Just sayin'.

 

Yeah they can JG too but i can mix 1BB with 214throw combo or with B+K or even 1AAA with lots of results xD and in if you can do it without the JF restriction you can only eat an AA or very little damage compared with the big reward of the combo that follows(say goodby to 1/2 of your health) what i tried to say is the low risk of BIG starters that is completely annoying and ridiculous, 214B+G alpha, 3B viola (hard to punish) 3B cerv, asta CE,236B mitsu etc etc, thats why i love virtua because it feels you deserve the damage is not like im astaroth: ok.... frame trap... 6B LOOK!!!!!!! counterhit!! PUM PUM astaroth wins is more like a chess fight predict and risk for big damage or poke until you see a way in

 

Wow. This post just opened my brain. I play Aoi and I have a bad habit of standing still in a fight. I know she has the mobility to run circles around her opponent (I've had it done to me online) I just have to condition myself to do it. This post definitely helps. Thank you.

 

Hi guys,
From a somewhat good competitive soulcalibur player :
VF5FS = SC5 mind games.

It's especially true if you played a character like Alpha Patroklos or Astaroth.

It's all about mind games and playing your frame data and risk/reward just like SC5.

I really love VF5FS because even so it's so insanely broken everywhere (and even though the moves are really strong the game is really balanced !) AND it doesn't take at all the edge of a good player. SC5 comeback are sometimes somewhat stupid with random CE and stupid risk/reward and pushbacks.

Coming from a SC5 background, you're aware of priority, of antisteps (if you use Alpha Patroklos or Astaroth, you're already used to antistep throws and delay attacks), of zoning and of okizeme mind games (especially if you're a decent Yoshimitsu player using 66A+B tricks against backroll on KND).
You'll find that kind of stuff everywhere in FS.

Main differences SC5 / VF5FS :
- Step/Evade : step in SC5 is done as soon as your attack is finished, in FS you can buff it really really early and it evades a lot more stuff than in SC5. In VF5FS when I play against a very good player it feels like step is all powerfull. In SC5, because there's tons of antistep moves you need to step less.
- Throws : all throws in VF5FS are antistep.
- Zoning : zoning is a little less important (because the maps are smaller, and the characters dash faster).
- Breaking throws : You can break throws on reaction in SC5 (because throw is 17f and you have 9f to do so), you need to break throws on anticipation in VF5FS. This seems really really hard for me to get used to (I still break A and B throws on reaction lol).
- A lot of moves are negatives on hit. Frame data study is REALLY useful. (Just like in SC5 btw)
- Okizeme, rising attacks have invincibility frames, you need to bait them and whiffpunish, or interrupt them with good timing. It's all a guess.
If they don't do a rising attack, you're free to use whatever means you have to press them.

Hope that helped

 

I'm playing SCV, maybe not on competitive level but what I see but you didn't write is fact that SCV is big punishment fest

Zoning is just much easier to see in SCV since you have sometimes huge difference in weapons, when come to FS you have just length of human limbs But still there is kinda zoning game.

Maybe it's just me but studying Frame Data in FS is a lot easier than SCV, maybe because there are some general moves for every character and FS just feels to me really natural

Also FS have this turn initiative system which SCV doesn't have.

I don't want to be harsh but:
"I'm not sure if trolling or just stupid"
Just because every character have tools to be real threat to opponent doesn't make this broken vs broken game, geez.

 

Have to fix something and apologize, in my anti-low-punch post, I mention that Wolf's elbow class attack is 3P+K.

However, while it has a lot of similarities to elbow attacks, it is generally too slow to be used against low punch mashing in the method I described. At least according to the current set of frame data that we have here (I will not be around my VF setup for a few days so I cannot test this).

So I apologize for misleading and want to clarify that here. 3P however, can be used like an elbow as far as I can tell.

 

Not to be a jerk but there's a huge bunch of misconception about SC there :

Comepetitive SC5 is not a big punishment fest at all.
Because of various reasons :
- Pushback which limits your punishment (this can be kinda stupid for some moves like Omega's DNS B which is -14 but has sick pushback and only 2 or 3 character can actually punish).
- A lot of people plays really really safe (and they have to because top players punish a lot).
- risk/reward and mind game options (just like VF) allows to use unsafe moves.

Zoning is not much easier in SC5, it's completely different (sometimes much harder for me than in VF because a lot of characters have different backdash length AND you can't cancel backdash into step in SC5). Btw I wasn't saying that zoning is unimportant in VF. Just that it's a little less stronger than it is in SC5 because step is just more powerfull in FS (and the maps are smaller too).

Studying FD in FS is a lot harder than it is in SC5 for me.
There's tons of moves negative on hit. Good thing is there are not a lot unsafe moves so you can actually focus on hit priority.

SC5 has the very same turn initiative system as FS. That's why so much SC5 players are playing FS btw.
We have the very same basis. And the very same mind game

 

Maxou I said that zoning in SCV is easier to SEE not that it's easier to zone someone

About turn system I don't think its that clear in SCV in some particular MU, especially Siegfried involved

I don't know who do you use in SCV but there is also a lot of negative frames on block.

In VF FD can be easier after all Moves like P, 2P, Elbows and rest of fundamentals which I keep forgeting/still don't know well are almost same for every character.

In SCV probably throws and FC (full crouch) kicks can be compared in everyone command list

OF course someone my claim that I'm just salty scrub since I can't play safe using... Mitsurugi =.=

EDIT: I almost forgot. SCV players play FS too probably because Tekken has its very own movement which is sick, too complicated and not natural at all to me at least. But I'm kinda Tekken antifan

 

Siegfried is especially turn based (since he is really unsafe and has most of the time bad risk/reward) actually. He has a stances though, that's why you may think he is not as "normal" as other characters.

I do use Alpha Patroklos, and if there's a lot of disadvantage on block in SC5, it's because the moves and starters are slower than in FS and the step/antistep basis is different.
Good punishment in SC5 is most of the time out of -18 or less, while you can punish heavily in FS out of -15/-16/-17 with most of the cast. In SC5 there only few character that can punish with average to good damage out of those kind of unsafe moves.

So of course there are some huge difference between SC5 and VF5FS, but the basis is exactly the same.

 

What's up Maxou?

Also, re: zoning -

I think that zoning is less of an issue not due to the step system, but due to more uniform threat ranges for the characters. It's not like Yoshi range vs. Ivy range. The zoning is still there, but it's much more subtle.

Also, regarding throws:

Maxou, you are somewhat right that they must be broken on anticipation. Really, the habit you must train is to always enter a throw escape when guarding. There is no reason not to do it, so it is a habit you will need to form for this game.

Glad to see you're picking up VF. I like the series much better than SC, to be honest, and I've played both a fair deal. I'm surprised you think that VF5:FS has more "broken" stuff than SCV, but I'm not sure what specifically you were referring to.

 

Hey Baka

Yeah the zoning is here, and it's actually quite good.

I really need to train to break throw, I take so much of them it hurts.
I really like FS so far. As much as SC5.
FS has a lot of stuff that is so strong it hurts (exemple Taka : i16 mid -8 starter combo NH 70 dmg with hit confirmable 2nd move that you can delay !), but it doesn't means it is not a balanced game. All the character have that kind of stuff. I really like it, for me SC5 should copy VF

 

I was going to say that. And I would add to that the presence of "A" attacks, which seriously hurt the sidestep possibilities. The simple fact is that different ranges in Soul Calibur seriously affects the abilities of the characters.

Zoning in VF has a lot to do with baiting wiffs and punishing them. It is a tactic. In Soul Calibur there is a legitimate difference in the threat range that affects the balance of the characters. It is not a tactic, it is a legitimate difference in the characters regardless of who is playing them.

The ability of one character to threaten you from a range at which you can't threaten him is a serious advantage. That means that the player controlling the short range character has to work harder in order to create a balanced fight in spite of the range difference.

 

I think one of the things that is brilliant about the Soul Calibur series is that it truly has zoning in a 3d fighting game. I find it to be a unique aspect that is part of what makes Soul Calibur, Soul Calibur ^_^

With Virtua Fighter... I don't know if I even really call it zoning, it's more of a footsie-spacing game which I think is actually a really great part of VF (except that I feel that how strong you are with up-close toe-to-toe fighting drastically improves how effective you can be when playing footsie/baiting). I absolutely love the spacing game in VF, I just don't really think of it as zoning though.

That said, the threat ranges are "seemingly uniform," but I really consider them character specific.

The range at which a backdash (without evade-cancelling) is "safe enough" against Taka is pretty far away (if he reads a non-cancelled backdash and you are within any normal fighting distance, he can knock more than half your life off) and a variety of tools can really own you if you don't respect the ranges with that character. Lion (my character) has so many ways to bait people and has ranges that are "slightly off" of the most common ranges that he takes advantage of that too.

I think that in both VF and Soul Calibur you have to really respect both your ranges and your opponent's ranges. However, I feel that this understanding is way more important overall in Soul Calibur and that you really do have "true zoning" in Soul Calibur as you can lock opponents in or out of effective ranges in that game. Soul Calibur is pretty much designed with zoning in mind as far as I can tell.

In VF, I think the range just dictates the level of threat and ability to match it or flat out beat the potential incoming attacks. Meaning, I think with VF it's mainly "footsie/spacing" as opposed to zoning.

While the Ring Out zone and Walls can be brought into the argument, I think that's just a form of corner-pressure.

But everyone is free to have their own definition of zoning ^_^ The great thing about fighting games is we can approach many problems/solutions differently.

My definition of zoning is pretty strict, especially considering the fighting game space after games like Marvel vs. Capcom 2, Guilty Gear/BlazBlue, and yep--Soul Calibur, where zoning seems to have taken on a whole new meaning. And I don't consider VF is at all deficient for not having true zoning, just different ^_^ Though the OG of zoning is Dhalsim of course

And again, zoning in a 3d fighter is one of the great appeals of Soul Calibur ^_^

Just my thoughts on the subject along with my vague but personal definition of zoning vs. spacing/footsie.

 

Good thread here.. It seems if I play one game I tend to get rusty in the other... Anyone else notice it's harder to tech recover in SC V then it is VF 5 FS? Also I don't think Zoning is quite as prevalent as it was prepatch with the recent backstep nerf.. You basically can punish bigtime if you catch someone in it...